Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Agreement? It MUST be transitory!
But it feels nice when it happens.... until it starts to feel oppresive.

Would SOMEPLACE send us some rain please??
mike

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:

>
> Mike and Helen
> your comment that different ways of defining/interpreting provide glimpses
> of a theoretical field which provide the LENSES through which we interpret
> the processes of common interest is a central insight for articulating how
> we ought to proceed.  The centrality of the quality of emotional
> relationships in shared activities seems to be a key variable and this
> points to the constructs of "intersubjectivity" and "recognition" and
> "response-ability" as terms that speak to this relational perspective.
> Larry
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@education.monash.edu.au>
> Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009 5:00 pm
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> > Absolutely agreed! But I think the type of communication that
> > goes on in
> > most schools (at least the ones I've been in) between teachers and
> > students is way different to the type of social communication being
> > advocated by the Golden Key schools. I think part of the problem
> > is that
> > obshchenie is probably ineffable as well as untranslatable!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Helen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:24 am
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > > obuchenie without obshchenie is a little difficult to imagine,
> > helen.> communication devoid of affect seems to offer a similar
> > set of
> > > problems.
> > > Again, in every case of "definition" we have (a largely
> > unexplicated,> because you can never say everything about
> > anything) a large,
> > > pre-supposed set of theoretical assumptions about the
> > processes being
> > > defined.
> > >
> > > What makes discussion of these cases always (potentially) useful
> > > is that different ways of defining/interpreting provide
> > glimpses of
> > > thetheoretical field which provides the lens through which we
> > and our
> > > interlocutors are interpreting/delimiting the processes of
> > > (potentially!)common interest.
> > >
> > > mike
> > > (PS-- My spelling and typing are no better in transliterated
> > > Russian than in
> > > English)  :-((
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Helen Grimmett <
> > > helen.grimmett@education.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > > A group from my university attended the Vygotsky/Golden Key Summer
> > > > School earlier in the year and returned home all talking
> > about the
> > > > importance of obshchenie (this is the spelling we have been
> > using
> > > -
> > > > funny that it is a cross between Mike and Katrina's). While
> > they
> > > said> that Elena Kravtsova translated it as 'social
> > communication'
> > > she also
> > > > made it clear that this was not really an adequate
> > translation for
> > > > capturing the true expansive meaning of the word.
> > > >
> > > > In reference to my earlier message, pasted below, I'm
> > wondering
> > > whether> it is actually 'obshchenie' that is the unique
> > property of
> > > 'obuchenie'> (teaching/learning)? - i.e. it is all about the
> > > special social/emotional
> > > > relationships between and among teachers and learners in the joint
> > > > activity of obuchenie that make the difference.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps some Russian speakers can help further?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Helen.
> > > >
> > > > Earlier message: Helen wrote....
> > > > I am currently attempting to use obuchenie as a central
> > > > concept in my PhD research, arguing that perhaps using a
> > 'new'
> > > word with
> > > > teachers makes it easier for them to think about teaching
> > and
> > > learning> in a new way (as a conjoint practice that both
> > teachers
> > > and learners
> > > > engage in together).
> > > >
> > > > I have argued that it is difficult to assign new
> > > conceptualisations to
> > > > existing terms we have traditionally conceptualised in
> > different
> > > ways> and that perhaps using teaching/learning still provides
> > an
> > > image of
> > > > simply bringing together the two contradictory practices of
> > > teaching and
> > > > learning (as understood in their old way) rather than
> > helping
> > > teachers> think about it in a new way as a dialectical unity
> > which
> > > has its own
> > > > unique properties (more than the sum of its parts).
> > > >
> > > > I then go on in my proposal for confirmation of candidature
> > paper to
> > > > spend nearly 6000 words trying to explain what the unique
> > > properties of
> > > > obuchenie are. In a nutshell I talk about the ZPD (although
> > > taking a
> > > > holistic approach to development recognising the importance
> > of the
> > > > affective dimension alongside the more typical cognitive
> > approach);> > intersubjectivity and perezhivanie; authentic
> > meaning and motives
> > > for> participating in the activity; and recognising that all
> > of
> > > this occurs
> > > > within a particular cultural-historical context that both
> > > determines and
> > > > is determined by the interactions of the participants.
> > > >
> > > > I would be interested to hear what others think are the
> > unique
> > > qualities> of obuchenie and why/whether translations as even
> > > teaching/learning or
> > > > teaching-learning may be inadequate for generating new
> > > understandings> amongst teachers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Katarina Rodina <katja@student.uv.uio.no>
> > > > Date: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:30 am
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Communication/social relations/obshenie
> > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > > > The problem with terminology is a tricky one. The
> > understanding of
> > > > > terminology in Russian Psychology as "communication", "social
> > > > > interaction"and "Obchenie" is far from being straightforward.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've tried to investigate the problem of
> > communication
> > > (obchenie) in
> > > > > Vygotsky's, Leontiev's and so-called neo-Vygotskian
> > research (see
> > > > > belowRodina (2006)) .
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem of communication as a social relation (rus.
> > obchenie,> > > German"Verkehr") is highlighted in the works of
> > A.N. Leontiev,
> > > > > Zaporozhets and
> > > > > M. Lisina, i.e. the concept of early ontogeny of communication
> > > > > (obchenie)as a communicative activity (not speech activity
> > as an
> > > > > object of study as
> > > > > in psycholinguistics). Lisina's theory of early emotional
> > > > > communication/obchenia as a Leading Acitivity has much in
> > > common with
> > > > > Trevarthen's concept of early inter-subjective
> > communication and
> > > > > socio-emotional development in early ontogeny. Bodrova & Leong
> > > > > (1996: 51)
> > > > > could also be mentioned as a contemporary variant of
> > Elkonin's and
> > > > > Lisina's psychological concept of early emotional
> > > > > communication/obcheniawith Tronick`s (1989) "interactional
> > > synchrony".> >
> > > > > Lisina's understanding of communication/obchenia as a
> > > psychological> > category was based on Vygotsky's cultural-
> > > historical theory of
> > > > > developmentof HMF and Leontiev's activity theory (see for
> > example> > > Lisina, M. (1985)
> > > > > Child-Adults-Peers: Patterns of Communication. Progress
> > > Publishers;> > Karpov,Y.(2005). The Neo-Vygotskian Approach to
> > > Child Development.
> > > > > Cambridge University Press; Bodrova, E. & Leong, B.(1996).
> > > Tools of
> > > > > theMind: The Vygotskian Approach to Early Childhood Education.
> > > > > Prentice-Hall,
> > > > > Inc., pp. 50-55; Rodina, K. (2006).The Neo-Vygotskian
> > Approach to
> > > > > EarlyCommunication: A Cultural-Historical and Activity based
> > > > > Concept of
> > > > > Ontogeny. Nordic Psychology,Vol.58, No.4, 331-354).
> > > > >
> > > > > Katarina
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, November 21, 2009 17:22, mike cole wrote:
> > > > > > " Since communication is the precise measure of the
> > > possibility of
> > > > > social
> > > > > > organization, of good understanding among men (sic), relations
> > > > > that are
> > > > > beyond its range are not truly social..
> > > > > > GH Cooley, 1894.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > for Cooley, like Pierce, "mind is made concrete in culture."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------
> > > > > > Cooley's first book: The theory of transportation. No
> > > accident that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Katarina A. Rodina
> > > > > Research Fellow (PhD)/Logoped,MNLL
> > > > > Department of Special Needs Education,
> > > > > University of Oslo, P.O.Box 1140 Blindern,
> > > > > NO-0318 Oslo, Norway
> > > > > Phone: +47 41 108 408/Fax:  +47 22 85 80 21
> > > > > E-mail: katarina.rodina@isp.uio.no
> > > > >
> > http://staffdirectory.uv.uio.no/singleview/v1/index.php?user=katja> > >
> http://katarinarodina.blogspot.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > Head of Russo-Norwegian Academic Relations,
> > > > > The Vygotsky Institute of Psychology/RSUH
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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