Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Piaget's "Langage et Pensée" and "Le jugement et raisonnement chez l´enfant".

[David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>]

Achilles:
 
LSV knew his Piaget! In Thinking and Speech, LSV also refers to: "The child's conception of the world", it's sequel "La causalite physique chez l'enfant", and "The psychology of the child and the teaching of history". In his "Play" lectures in Leningrad LSV refers to Piaget's book "Le jugement morale chez l'enfant". When Vygotsky referred somewhat disparagingly to the questions "with which Piaget fills his books", it was because he'd waded through quite a few of them.
 
Yes, the fifty page essay which LSV wrote as a preface to the Russian edition of Language and Thought in the Child in 1932 was a bit heavy as a preface; when we read it we are not at all surprised that there was no contact between the author and the prefator.(Meccaci says that Piaget and Vygotsky already knew enough to avoid each other by 1931; they apparently did not meet when Piaget visited Moscow.) But long and intensely search prefaces were Vygotsky's style; a lot of his prefaces (collected in Volume Three of the Collected Works) are like that. LSV has something to say about just about everybody, and it's never simple or simply laudatory.
 
The usual story is that LSV only knew Piaget's early work and that his criticisms are basically invalid today (you can actually find this rather thoughtless comment on the MIA website, appended to Piaget's response to Vygotsky). On the other side, Leontiev claims that Piaget eventually agreed with all of Vygotsky's criticisms so Piaget's early work is basically invalid. But I think anybody who reads, say, "Play, Imitation, and Dreams" will have to agree that the differences between the two grew greater and greater. And if you read Kohlberg, or Elkind, or even Subbotsky, you have to admit that they continue to grow today even after both men's bones are cold. 
 
I used to groan when the civil service examination for teachers used to trundle out, every year, the essay chestnut "Describe the differences between the developmental theories of L.S. Vygotsky and Jean Piaget". Now I know better.
 
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of Education

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky and Piaget's "Langage et Pensée" and "Le jugement et raisonnement chez l´enfant".
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 2:04 PM



XMCA,

I listen that Vygotsky knew both Piaget's works: "Langage et Pensée" 
and. "Le jugement  et raisonnement 
chez l´enfant". But do you know exactly 
if the Chapter two in "Thinking an speech" from Vygotsky, is really a 
preface to one or another of this Piaget's works? Do you know if 
Vygotsky wrote a preface published in other place beyond "Thinking
and speech"? I saw Minick's article about "the development of Vygotsky's
thought", but is not so clear about the existence of prefaces. Reading
Chapter 2, I feel it is very extensive to be a preface, but I don't know.

Can you help me?

Achilles
>From Brazil.







                          
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