Re: [xmca] Adult before their time?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Andy, Jon, et al.

To make progress in this discussion, it seems to me that we have to keep in
mind that Vygotsky is taking for granted in the writings cited that about
the age of 13-14 (in his day and place) young people would be entering
secondary/high school with a long history of forms of discourse that he
deemed essential to the formation of "true concepts."

There is great uncertainty that adolescence exists as a universal stage of
human development with people arguing both sides of the issue. But that the
specific character of a transition from childhood (itself an historically
contingent "stage of life") to adulthood (ANOTHER historically contingent
stage of life) is hugely variable in its cultural manifestations seems
beyond
question to me. Citations, starting with Cole and Cole, The Development of
Children back as far as edition one in the late 1980's, are abundent.

So Elkind is talking about a particular class and historical moment. The
child soldiers of this world have had, in general very little exposure
either to decent nutrition or anything like education as Vygotsky understood
it.

My basic suggestion to avoid needless controversy (I am assuming controversy
is necessary, and can be generative of our own conceptual
development) we make clear in such discussions that cultural-historical
conditions in question.

That doped up 8 year olds, scared out of their wits and blasting their
neighbors with uzis are not controlling themselves from the outside via
scientific concepts would not surprise me.

mike

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> The issue came up from a qualification of a qualification. It is true what
> you said, that the Heidegger thread is also relevant to my book, because it
> is about concepts.
>
> The issue came up because I had a couple of pages describing Vygotsky's
> claim that only in adolescence are children able to acquire true concepts,
> the difference between true concepts and pseudoconcepts and the unity of the
> two, and how it is only because of the young person's entry into a social
> position with professional responsibilities, participation in politics, and
> so on, outside the protection of the home and school support system, that
> they can acquire true concepts.
>
> But then I thought, what is the evidence? how would one know anyway? and
> what would happen if a child still too immature for true conceptual thinking
> were to be thrown into responsibility in the wider world, having the rug
> pulled out from under them too early, so to speak? True conceptual thought
> is (1) impossible because they have not yet laid down an adequate substratum
> of pseudo- and potential concepts, but (2) possible because they are
> participating in societal activity, with a social position, etc. And then I
> remembered this phrase "grown up before their time," so I thought: what does
> that look like? what sort of concepts does the child acquire? do we have
> pre-adolescents learning concepts? what is the negative effect of such
> precocity?
>
> The same section of Vygotsky (vol 5 pp 26ff) where I found him talking
> about the adolescent learning concepts in the context of *ideology* as a
> result of participating in societal life (instability, rigidity,
> romanticism), I found things like "The unit ..., the simplest action with
> which the intellect of the adolescent operates, is, of course, not a
> representation, but a concept," and "The word, becoming a carrier of the
> concept, is ... the real theory of the object to which it refers," and lots
> of other stuff relevant to the other thread.
>
> Andy
>
> Duvall, Emily wrote:
>
>> Good points, Jon.
>> I wonder, Andy, if you are looking more at children who take on adult
>> rolls due to traumatic/ unplanned change in their sociocultural
>> conditions/ in the necessity of the activit(ies) they must perform...
>> ~em
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Tudge JRTUDGE
>> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 7:46 AM
>> To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Adult before their time?
>>
>> Greetings, chaps!
>>
>> Don't we need to distinguish between children who have been recruited as
>>
>> child soldiers or who currently live in war zones and others who are
>> viewed as "adult before their time"? Just because many of us have become
>>
>> accustomed to a lengthy adolescence and an adulthood that may not start
>> until the 20s, it was typical until the last couple of hundred years in most
>> places for adulthood to start far earlier. Even after passage of
>> the Factory Acts in England at the start of the 19th century 10-year-olds
>> were still working up to 12 hours a day. In rural parts of Africa, at
>> least until the advent of universal (or at least widespread) primary
>> education
>>
>> girls as young as five were routinely expected to care for their younger
>>
>> siblings, and there was no expectation that engaging in productive
>> labour would only start at age 10.
>>
>> Jon
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Jonathan Tudge
>> Professor
>> 155 Stone
>>
>> Mailing address:
>> 248 Stone Building
>> Department of Human Development and Family Studies
>> PO Box 26170
>> The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>> Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
>> USA
>>
>> phone (336) 256-0131
>> fax   (336) 334-5076
>>
>> http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> 10/23/2009 05:30 AM
>> Please respond to
>> ablunden@mira.net; Please respond to
>> "eXtended Mind, Culture,        Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>
>> To
>> "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> cc
>>
>> Subject
>> Re: [xmca] Adult before their time?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the answer to my question may be found in the combination of a
>> paper which Emily sent me: "What Children Can Tell Us About Living in
>> Danger" (by James Garbarino, Kathieen Kostelny, and Nancy Dubrow Erikson
>> Institute for Advanced Study in Child Development, Chicago), and Vygotsky's
>> chapter on "Development of Thinking and Formation of Concepts in the
>> Adolescent" in Volume 5 of the LSV CW.
>>
>> Garbarino & Co. look at a number of zones of conflict, such as the Gaza
>> Strip, and among other things observe that "fanatical" ideology is a vital
>> support for people, especially children, who are faced with enormous moral
>> and emotional pressures. Not hard to see why.
>>
>> Vygotsky mentions first of all in his explanation of how adolescents
>> acquire concepts as part of a completely new type of thinking characteristic
>> of the "transitional period," the entry into and an interest in ideology.
>> Ideology has the same psychological structure as "science" (cf Davydov's
>> paper on "scientific concepts") especially the abstract sciences like maths
>> and physics. He also says that the child who has just arrived at concepts
>> cannot acquire dialectical thought. This means that adolescents first
>> acquire conceptual thought in the form of relatively rigid systems of
>> meaning, a.k.a., "fanatical" ideology.
>>
>> This rings true to me. The child forced to grow up before their time who
>> have to make sense of the wider world of societal life, politics and war,
>> acquires fanatical, or at least, overly rigid or simplified *ideology*. What
>> greater ideologist is there than the young Red Guard?
>>
>> Does this ring true or false to people who have more experience than I do
>> in this business?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Duvall, Emily wrote:
>>
>>> Beah's story is amazing... there was a very good interview with him
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> is well worth digging for and listening to/viewing. If you search, child
>>> soldier, on amazon you will find a plethora of
>>> offerings.
>>>
>>> I would also suggest a few others...
>>>
>>> Iqbal by F. D'Adamo about the rug making industry in Pakistan (Iqbal
>>>
>> was
>>
>>> assassinated for his work in fighting child labor after he escaped and
>>> became an international icon in the war)... there are other
>>>
>> biographies
>>
>>> on his life
>>>
>>> The Circuit, by F. Jimenez may be a bit out of the realm... child of
>>>
>> an
>>
>>> illegal immigrant... it is autobiographical, by the way.
>>>
>>> Peter Sis' book, The Wall, is an interesting memoir/ graphic novel on
>>> growing up behind the Iron Curtain as a child... being encouraged to
>>> report on loved ones, etc makes for an interesting view of soldiering.
>>>
>>> The Latehomecomer: A Hmong Family Memoir by Kao Kalia Yang is another
>>> interesting perspective on children coming from war
>>>
>>> Another direction that could be interesting are Viet Nam and other vet
>>> memoirs... my husband went over as a teenager and his experiences in
>>> recon totally changed him... in other words, the PTSD... I suspect
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> this is the underlying, common effect that you will find in many
>>>
>> stories
>>
>>> involving children war, being stolen/sold, abandoned, etc.
>>> Some texts, such as Hiroshima, No Pika by T. Maruki, biographical
>>> narrative, don't really get at the child's experience with a child's
>>> voice, but are powerful nonetheless.
>>>
>>> I also have on my 'to be read' shelf:
>>> Shattered: Stories of Children and War, by J. Armstrong
>>> Survivors: True Stories of Children in the Holocaust A. Zullo
>>> Stolen Voices: Young People's War Diaries by Z Filipovic
>>>
>>>
>>> Best, Em
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>> On Behalf Of David Preiss
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:15 AM
>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Adult before their time?
>>>
>>> Dear Andy,
>>>
>>> As regards child soldiers, this recent book is a good reference: A Long
>>> Way Gone: Memoirs of a Boy Soldier by Ishmael Beah.
>>> It is testimonial.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:33 AM, mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>>  Andy --
>>>>
>>>> Two quick points:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The consequences are for development of the whole child in society so
>>>> focusing on the cognitive seems especially counterproductive in the
>>>> cases of
>>>> interest to you and xmca. And may, indeed, provide a privileged site for
>>>> inquiry. But its very dangerous. A colleague of a friend of mine doing
>>>> such
>>>> research was shot and killed in Rio a few days ago.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Good Brazilian street children or child soldiers or several
>>>>
>>> cognate
>>
>>> categories and you should be inundated. I was.
>>>>
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Mmm that looks interesting in itself, about the modern fad among middle
>>>>> class parents for pushing their children to overperform academically.
>>>>> But I
>>>>> suspect I am not going to get an answer to what's intriguing me that
>>>>> way.
>>>>>
>>>>> When a child is suddenly deprived of their support systems - becoming a
>>>>> street urchin or a child soldier for example or having to look after
>>>>> their
>>>>> siblings if the parents become dysfunctional - then they are thrown
>>>>> into a
>>>>> social situation which we talked of before, in which it is possible to
>>>>> learn
>>>>> concepts, the very opposite of course of the "scientific concepts"
>>>>> inculcated at school. I was wondering if the result is a very stunted
>>>>> kind
>>>>> of thinking (like the policeman who knows how to spot a criminal by
>>>>> age,
>>>>> race, and so on) or precocious wisdom which understands that words
>>>>> express
>>>>> social meanings, not just what they appear to mean on the surface, and
>>>>> watches the lay of the land.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what is that precocious worldliness in cognitive terms?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Early claims:
>>>>>> David Elkind, The hurried child. Cambridge. DeCapo Press. 1981
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 3:25 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not quite the same sort of trauma, but there's plenty of pop analysis
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the life of Michael Jackson these days. p
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Smagorinsky
>>>>>>> Professor of English Education
>>>>>>> Department of Language and Literacy Education
>>>>>>> The University of Georgia
>>>>>>> 125 Aderhold Hall
>>>>>>> Athens, GA 30602
>>>>>>> smago@uga.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>> ]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:19 AM
>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Adult before their time?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me of any research done on the idea of
>>>>>>> children who have "grown up before their time," as a result
>>>>>>> of war, family disaster or otherwise having been projected
>>>>>>> into the adult world on their own? And how is such a
>>>>>>> characterization "adult before their time" made? On the
>>>>>>> basis of the use of concepts?? Lack of interest in play??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tony Whitson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I would add Nietzsche, along with Heidegger and Derrida, to what
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>> says.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Heidegger is sometimes dismissed as incomprehensible, but Nietzsche
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Derrida are more often treated as wild and reckless writers who can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> fun to read, but without looking for any careful argument.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you don't expect either of them to be writing seriously, you
>>>>>>>> won't
>>>>>>>> read them seriously and you won't see what they're writing. N said
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> much, but then if you're not taking him seriously, you won't take
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> seriously when he says that, either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I saw an interview with D once where the interviewer, in the
>>>>>>>> interview,
>>>>>>>> in D's presence, ventured that deconstruction was basically the same
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> the US sitcom "Seinfeld"--It's just a matter of taking everything
>>>>>>>> ironically. D replied that if you want to know anything about
>>>>>>>> deconstruction, you need to do some reading. The interview was
>>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>> much over at that point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know what people read that Heidegger has written. I
>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> have not met a person who has read Sein und Zeit to the end, people
>>>>>>>>> appear to read secondary literature rather than the primary.
>>>>>>>>> Moreover,
>>>>>>>>> nobody appears to be talking/writing about Unterwegs zur Sprache
>>>>>>>>> (David K., this should be of interest to you), or about Holzwege
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> other works. First, I can't see anything that would fit the
>>>>>>>>> political
>>>>>>>>> ideas of Nazism, for one, and I can't see anything that would be
>>>>>>>>> understandable in terms of the quote that Steve contributes below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do understand that Heidegger is difficult to read---I had to take
>>>>>>>>> repeated stabs since I first purchased Sein und Zeit in 1977.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Heidegger, by the way, does very close readings of some ancient
>>>>>>>>> Greek
>>>>>>>>> philosophers. And when you pay attention to his writing, and do the
>>>>>>>>> same with Derrida, for example, then you begin to realize that the
>>>>>>>>> latter has learned a lot from the former.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now that my English is better than my German ever has been
>>>>>>>>> (although
>>>>>>>>> it was my main language for 25 years) I personally know about
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>
>>> problems of translations. Above all, any of the mechanical
>>>>>>>>> translations that have been proposed on this list won't do even the
>>>>>>>>> simplest of texts. And it is about more than literal content.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We can learn from both of them, Heidegger and Derrida, that things
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> more difficult than they look, and even more difficult than reading
>>>>>>>>> their texts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 21-Oct-09, at 7:37 PM, Steve Gabosch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I appreciate Martin's insights on Heidegger, as I do those of
>>>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>>>>> I for one don't really know that much about Heidegger's ideas. I am
>>>>>>>>> glad to learn from those that have studied him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is an interesting glossary entry on Heidegger in a book of
>>>>>>>>> Marxist essays by George Novack (1905-1992), Polemics in Marxist
>>>>>>>>> Philosophy: Essays on Sartre, Plekhanov, Lukacs, Engels,
>>>>>>>>> Kolalkowski,
>>>>>>>>> Trotsky, Timpanaro, Colletti (1978).  The glossary to the book was
>>>>>>>>> written by Leslie Evans and edited by Novack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Heidegger, Martin (1889-1976) - German existentialist philosopher.
>>>>>>>>> His ideas were best expounded in Sein un Zeit (Being and Time,
>>>>>>>>> 1927).
>>>>>>>>> A philosopher of irrationalism.  Heidegger maintained that the
>>>>>>>>> chief
>>>>>>>>> impediment to human self-development was reason and science, which
>>>>>>>>> led
>>>>>>>>> to a view of the world based on subject-object relations. Humans
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> reduced to the status of entities in the thing-world which they
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> thrown (the condition of "thrownness").  This state of inauthentic
>>>>>>>>> being could be overcome neither through theory (science) nor social
>>>>>>>>> practice, but only by an inward-turning orientation toward one's
>>>>>>>>> self,
>>>>>>>>> particularly in the contemplation of death. Heidegger was
>>>>>>>>> influenced
>>>>>>>>> by Kierkegaard and Husserl (see entries), and in turn deeply
>>>>>>>>> affected
>>>>>>>>> the thought of Sartre, Camus, and Marcuse.  He was himself a chair
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> philosophy at the University of Freiburg in 1928 after his mentor,
>>>>>>>>> Edmund Husserl, had been forced to relinquish it by the Nazis.
>>>>>>>>> Heidegger supported Hitler, which led to his disgrace at the end of
>>>>>>>>> World War II and his retirement in 1951 to a life of rural
>>>>>>>>> seclusion."  (pg 307-308)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think Martin is completely right in the proposition that (taking
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> account of the continuing fascination the academy has with
>>>>>>>>>> Heidegger)
>>>>>>>>>> his works should be read to understand why and how Fascism and
>>>>>>>>>> Heidegger's philosophy supported each other and what should be
>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>> about it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As Goethe said "The greatest discoveries are made not by
>>>>>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>>>>>> but by their age," or more particularly every age is bequeated
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>
>>> certain problematic by their predecessors, but the different
>>>>>>>>>> philosophers confront that problematic in different ways. To say
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> those on either side of the battle lines in the struggle of a
>>>>>>>>>> particular times have something in common, seems to be in danger
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> missing the point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, in my opinion, Husserl and Heidegger may have been
>>>>>>>>>> responding
>>>>>>>>>> to Hegel, but between them they erected the gretest barrier to
>>>>>>>>>> understanding Hegel until Kojeve arrived on the scene. But that's
>>>>>>>>>> just me. A grumpy old hegelian.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  A few days ago Steve made passing reference to an article that
>>>>>>>>>>> apparently Tony had drawn his attention to, titled "Heil
>>>>>>>>>>> Heidegger."
>>>>>>>>>>> I Googled and found that it is a recent article in the Chronicle
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> Higher Education.
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.chroniclecareers.com/article/Heil-Heidegger-/48806/>
>>>>>>>>>>> The focus of the article is Heidegger's links with and support of
>>>>>>>>>>> the Nazis, and its principal recommendations are that we should
>>>>>>>>>>> stop
>>>>>>>>>>> paying attention to Heidegger, stop translating and publishing
>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>> writing, and "mock him to the hilt."
>>>>>>>>>>> I feel I should comment on this, since I have occasionally drawn
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> Heidegger's work in these discussions. I certainly have no
>>>>>>>>>>> intention
>>>>>>>>>>> of apologizing for Heidegger, who seems to have been a very nasty
>>>>>>>>>>> person, who was responsible for some deplorable actions. I do
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>> to question, however, the proposal that because of these facts we
>>>>>>>>>>> all would be better off ignoring his writing.
>>>>>>>>>>> I was introduced to Heidegger by a Jewish professor of philosophy
>>>>>>>>>>> who shared his last name (coincidentally as far as I know) with
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> of the best-known victims of antisemitism. At that time less was
>>>>>>>>>>> known about Heidegger's Narzism, but by no means nothing, and
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>
>>> recall discussion in the classroom of the issue. I came to feel that
>>>>>>>>>>> the last thing one should try to do is separate the man's work
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> his life. Perhaps if he had been working on some obscure area of
>>>>>>>>>>> symbolic logic, say, that would have been possible, but Heidegger
>>>>>>>>>>> had written a philosophy of human existence, and this would seem
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> *demand* that there be consistency between what he wrote and how
>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>> lived. Indeed, perhaps it would be important to study the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> man's
>>
>>> writings to try to understand where he went wrong; at what point in
>>>>>>>>>>> his analysis of human being did Heidegger open the door to the
>>>>>>>>>>> possibility of fascism? I think in fact that it is in Division II
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> Being and Time, where Heidegger is describing what he called
>>>>>>>>>>> 'authentic Dasein,' which amounts to a way that a person relates
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> time, specifically to the certainty of their own death, that the
>>>>>>>>>>> mistake is made and the door is opened to evil.
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlin Romano, the author of the article, doesn't seem to know
>>>>>>>>>>> Heidegger's work very well. Dasein ("being there," i.e. being-
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>  in-
>>>>>>>>>>> the-world) is not a "cultural world," nor do "Daseins intersect,"
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> he puts it. (But I suppose that he is mocking Heidegger.) And
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> brings me to my other reason for recommending that we continue to
>>>>>>>>>>> read Heidegger, his politics and (lack of) ethics
>>>>>>>>>>> notwithstanding.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is that his analysis throws light on issues that have been
>>>>>>>>>>> raised
>>>>>>>>>>> in this group, and were important  to LSV and others. I am sure
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> seems odd to link a Nazi philosopher to a socialist psychologist,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I am hardly the first to see connections. Lucien Goldmann
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>>>>>> "Lukacs and Heidegger," a book in which he acknowledged the
>>>>>>>>>>> incongruity but argued that there are "fundamental bonds" between
>>>>>>>>>>> the two men's work, that at the beginning of the 20th century "on
>>>>>>>>>>> the basis of a new problematic first represented by Lukacs, and
>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>> later on by Heidegger, the contemporary situation was slowly
>>>>>>>>>>> created. I would add that this perspective will also enable us to
>>>>>>>>>>> display a whole range of elements common to both philosophers,
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> are not very visible at first sight, but which nevertheless
>>>>>>>>>>> constitute the common basis on which undeniable antagonisms
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>
>>> elaborated" (p. 1).
>>>>>>>>>>> What is this common basis? It is that of overcoming the
>>>>>>>>>>> separation
>>>>>>>>>>> between subject and object in traditional thought, overcoming
>>>>>>>>>>> subject/object dualism, by recognizing the role of history in
>>>>>>>>>>> individual and collective human life, and rethinking the relation
>>>>>>>>>>> between theory and practice. As Michael wrote, Heidegger
>>>>>>>>>>> reexamined
>>>>>>>>>>> the traditional philosophical distinction between an object (a
>>>>>>>>>>> being) and what it *is* (its Being), and rejected both idealism
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> essentialism to argue that what an object is (and not just what
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> 'means') is defined by the human social practices in which it is
>>>>>>>>>>> involved, and in which people encounter it. These practices,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>
>>> course, change over historical time, so the conditions for an object
>>>>>>>>>>> to 'be' are practical, social, and historical. And since
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>
>>> define themselves in terms of the objects they work with, the basis
>>>>>>>>>>> of human being is practical, social, and historical too.
>>>>>>>>>>> I continue to believe that this new kind of ontological analysis,
>>>>>>>>>>> visible according to Goldmann in the work of both Lukacs and
>>>>>>>>>>> Heidegger, influenced in both cases by Hegel, is centrally
>>>>>>>>>>> important. If we can learn from studying Heidegger how to
>>>>>>>>>>> acknowledge these cultural conditions without falling into a
>>>>>>>>>>> valorization of the folk, without dissolving individuals in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>
>>> collective (a failing of the Left just as much as the Right), then
>>>>>>>>>>> we will have gained, not lost, by reading his texts.
>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov
>>>>> $20
>>>>> ea
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>> David Preiss
>>> ddpreiss@me.com
>>> http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
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>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20
> ea
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>
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