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Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language and thought
Dear Achilles,
Some thoughts:
1. Proletariat in 20s in Soviet Union is not surely a proletariat similar to
the one in a capitalist society. In this sense, the children of the
proletariat there in 20s are not children of an exploited proletariat etc...
But in another context, we can remember that during 20s, in Soviet Union,
social classes were not liquidated yet, even more, class struggles was going
on quite violently...New Economic Policy has even strengthened the position
of kulaks (capitalist peasants) etc We can also remember that liquidation of
the bourgeoisie takes towards the beginning of the 30s in the true sense of
the word, with industrialization and collectivisation.
2. Conceptually, even though bourgeoisie was liquidated, Soviet working
class saw itself as proletariat...In fact, this was theoretically named as
dictatorship of the proleariat...
3. In this sense, Soviet children at that time were proletarian children,
but a proletariat who owned the political power and who did not establish
yet socialism...
Ulvi
2009/8/31, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>:
>
>
> Thank you, very much David.
>
> It's very instructive.
>
> I will see the quotations at the Works.
> Seems to be interesting that Vygotsky was
> open to Rühle, even he was agaist Leninism,
> and saw Soviet Union as a form of State
> Capitalism... (I don't know if that information
> is reliable)... But, the point is just about
> relationships between social class position
> and social formation of mind. I agree with
> the opposition to Zalking thinking in terms of
> "class character"... I wonder that in "Socialist
> alteration of man" the relation of personality
> formation and class struggle seems to be more
> in dialectical terms... The entire society is
> not homogeneous, then the social formation
> of personality is not homogeneous too... But
> I really don´t know yet if Rühle thank like
> Zalkind. Do you think so?
>
> Thank you very much David... My friend tell
> me that she already find a Spanish version from
> the Rühle's book reviewed by Vygotsky... and
> them this seems to be very useful. There was
> yet some pedological works about soviet children
> valuation about class struggle, expropriation,
> relations between money and work, etc. There
> is a list of questions for interview with children
> from Mikhail Basov, that contains this kind of
> questions, together others about "physical
> causality", etc. This is reported by Valsiner,
> but I don´t know if this is the same. Can we
> call soviet children exactly "proletarian children"?
> In a social context in that people believe that
> there are no more "classes"? But we will see
> that pedologists studies too, if we could...
>
> Oh. Thank you very much... You help me too think
> broader than before...
>
> Best wishes.
> Achilles.
>
> > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 22:03:53 -0700
> > From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language
> and thought
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > Dear Achilles:
> >
> > As you probably know, there are a few references to Otto Ruele in Volume
> Two of the Collected Works on defectology, and some of these are to "The
> psyche of proletarian children".
> >
> > Overall, LSV takes a positive view of the work, which is a little
> surprising because of his hostility to the ideas of Zalkind on "proletarian
> character".
> >
> > Ruele seems to have been close to Adler, and a critic of Freud (or so
> says the notes on Ruele in Volume Two. LSV has generally nice things to say
> about Adler too.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > PS: Mike, I wasn't trying to put either you or Meltzoff on the spot; I
> was really just writing fluff along the lines of
> something-I-read-on-the-way-to-work-this-morning-that-I-thought-you-might-find-interesting.
> >
> > I guess the most interesting thing about it for me has to do with Greg's
> rather Whorfian letter which argues that thinking and speech have to be a
> lot closer than the longitude and latitude metaphor suggest, and that in
> particular phasal and semantic aspects of speech are really one and the same
> thing, linked but not distinct. When two things are linked but not distinct,
> it is hard to see how they can develop each other.
> >
> > Of course, SOMETHING happens in the brain when we read, and it may happen
> in different parts of the brain when we read different scripts (just as we
> may recover memories from different parts of the brain). But sometimes
> structural differences really can be "uncoupled" from ffunctional
> differences, and I think this is one of them.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > --- On Sun, 8/30/09, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children"...
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 7:01 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi XMCA.
> > How are you?
> > I wish fine.
> >
> > Please, I'm asking you for a help, one more time.
> > There is a friend of mine, working with expropriated
> > children, fighting against "child work expropriation" in the
> > North-east from my country. And she is looking for a particular
> > text from Vygotsky, and I suppose that there is no publication
> > of it, even in Russian. This is the title, seems to be only
> > the manuscript
> >
> > Review of The Psyche of proletarian Children by Otto Rulle
> > (Moscow-Leningrad, 1926). Private archives of L. S. Vygotsky.
> > Manucript, 3. pp.
> > Рец.
> > на кн.: Отто Рюле. Психика пролетарского ребенка. М.; Л.: ГИЗ, 1926 //
> Семейный
> > арх. Л.С. Выготского. 1926. 3 с. Рукопись.
> >
> > But this indication that there is only the manuscript is from 1996'
> > Lifanova's paper. Then, who knows if there is any publication after...
> > Do you have any notice about this work, or some general suggestion
> > of reading something about this subject (the psyche of children
> > in terms of social classes, and class struggle)?
> >
> > Thank you very much about your attention and help.
> >
> > Best wishes.
> > Achilles.
> > >From Brazil.
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