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RE: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language and thought
Thank you very much, Bruce.
It's very instructive and fascinating.
I never would wonder such a number of linkages...
And what could be the role of Rosa Luxemburg
in Ruehle thinking, no? Some people believes that
if Rosa's concerning with the problem of arising fascism
in Germany would be take more seriously, some tragedy
could be prevented. Some "official" marxists position,
"evolutionist" ones, that fascism was only a kind of sign of
capitalism weakness, was something not only theoretically
wrong, but very ethically and politically prejudicial too.
Its an interpretation from some people. I don't know,
after history already happens some judgments can be
easy to make. But, turning back to topic, I never
would wonder a spartacist dealing with child psychology...
So more I try to learn, so more I see how much I have to
learn. It's a "cliché", but to me falls as a truth...
Thank you very much... I will try to access the
new references, despite I will have some problems
with German... Thank you again to you and
David, and Andy and the further contributions.
All the best.
Achilles...
> From: bruce@brucerob.eu
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language andthought
> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:45:48 +0100
>
> Otto Ruehle had been in the German Social Democratic Party and one of the
> two SPD Reichstag members (the other was Karl Liebknecht) who opposed the
> First World War in parliament. He then became a leading member of the
> Spartacus League. As Achilles states, he came to see the Soviet Union as
> state capitalist and became a 'left communist' opponent of Leninism.
>
> I found a number of references to his work with children and interest in
> psychology in the 20s here -
> http://rcswww.urz.tu-dresden.de/~stecklin/ruehle/leben.html .
>
> Specifically:
>
> 1917-19: Aufbau des Kindererholungsheimes "Waldpark" in Mulda (bei Freiberg/
> Sachsen), Leitung des Heimes: Johanna Rühle
> [Setting up children's home / sanatorium]
>
> ca 1922/ 23 Gründung des Verlages ‚Am andern Ufer‘ (gemeinsam mit Alice
> Rühle-Gerstel)
>
> Veröffentlichungen im Verlag (u.a.):
>
> ‚Am andern Ufer. Blätter für sozialistische Erziehung.‘ Alice Rühle-Gerstel;
> Otto Rühle (Hrsg.). 1924; 1-5
> ['On the other river bank. Writings for socialist education']
>
> ‚Das proletarische Kind. Monatsblätter für proletarische Erziehung.‘ Alice
> Rühle-Gerstel; Rühle, Otto (Hrsg.) 1.1925/26; 1-12.; 2.1926; 1-6.
> ['The proletarian child: monthly journal for proletarian education']
>
> Schriftenreihe: Schwer erziehbare Kinder. Band 1-20. 1926/ 1927. Alice
> Rühle-Gerstel; Otto Rühle (Hrsg.)
> [Series: 'Difficult to educate children']
>
> Ruehle was still in Germany at this time. By the mid-30s he ended up in
> Mexico where he was in contact with Trotsky, serving on the Dewey Commission
> which examined the charges made against Trotsky in the Moscow Trials. I have
> an interesting memoir of this time by Ruehle's wife, Alice Rühle-Gerstel,
> where she describes how Ruehle tries to persuade Trotsky that Adler provided
> an approach to psychology more compatible with Marxism than Freud, while
> Trotsky sticks to his old admiration of Freud as more scientific.
>
> There is a full bibliography at
> http://rcswww.urz.tu-dresden.de/~stecklin/ruehle/beitrag.html#start which
> shows Ruehle interested in children and education as far back as the mid
> 1890s. There are two books which sound like they might have been the subject
> of LSV's review:
>
>
> Die Seele des proletarischen Kindes. Dresden [Buchholz-Friedewald] 1925
> Das proletarische Kind. München 1911; völlig neu bearb. und erweiterte Aufl.
> München 1922
>
>
> Bruce R
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Achilles Delari Junior" <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:25 AM
> Subject: RE: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language
> andthought
>
>
> >
> > Thank you, very much David.
> >
> > It's very instructive.
> >
> > I will see the quotations at the Works.
> > Seems to be interesting that Vygotsky was
> > open to Rühle, even he was agaist Leninism,
> > and saw Soviet Union as a form of State
> > Capitalism... (I don't know if that information
> > is reliable)... But, the point is just about
> > relationships between social class position
> > and social formation of mind. I agree with
> > the opposition to Zalking thinking in terms of
> > "class character"... I wonder that in "Socialist
> > alteration of man" the relation of personality
> > formation and class struggle seems to be more
> > in dialectical terms... The entire society is
> > not homogeneous, then the social formation
> > of personality is not homogeneous too... But
> > I really don´t know yet if Rühle thank like
> > Zalkind. Do you think so?
> >
> > Thank you very much David... My friend tell
> > me that she already find a Spanish version from
> > the Rühle's book reviewed by Vygotsky... and
> > them this seems to be very useful. There was
> > yet some pedological works about soviet children
> > valuation about class struggle, expropriation,
> > relations between money and work, etc. There
> > is a list of questions for interview with children
> > from Mikhail Basov, that contains this kind of
> > questions, together others about "physical
> > causality", etc. This is reported by Valsiner,
> > but I don´t know if this is the same. Can we
> > call soviet children exactly "proletarian children"?
> > In a social context in that people believe that
> > there are no more "classes"? But we will see
> > that pedologists studies too, if we could...
> >
> > Oh. Thank you very much... You help me too think
> > broader than before...
> >
> > Best wishes.
> > Achilles.
> >
> >> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 22:03:53 -0700
> >> From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children" and language and
> >> thought
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >> Dear Achilles:
> >>
> >> As you probably know, there are a few references to Otto Ruele in Volume
> >> Two of the Collected Works on defectology, and some of these are to "The
> >> psyche of proletarian children".
> >>
> >> Overall, LSV takes a positive view of the work, which is a little
> >> surprising because of his hostility to the ideas of Zalkind on
> >> "proletarian character".
> >>
> >> Ruele seems to have been close to Adler, and a critic of Freud (or so
> >> says the notes on Ruele in Volume Two. LSV has generally nice things to
> >> say about Adler too.
> >>
> >> David Kellogg
> >> Seoul National University of Education
> >>
> >> PS: Mike, I wasn't trying to put either you or Meltzoff on the spot; I
> >> was really just writing fluff along the lines of
> >> something-I-read-on-the-way-to-work-this-morning-that-I-thought-you-might-find-interesting.
> >>
> >> I guess the most interesting thing about it for me has to do with Greg's
> >> rather Whorfian letter which argues that thinking and speech have to be a
> >> lot closer than the longitude and latitude metaphor suggest, and that in
> >> particular phasal and semantic aspects of speech are really one and the
> >> same thing, linked but not distinct. When two things are linked but not
> >> distinct, it is hard to see how they can develop each other.
> >>
> >> Of course, SOMETHING happens in the brain when we read, and it may happen
> >> in different parts of the brain when we read different scripts (just as
> >> we may recover memories from different parts of the brain). But sometimes
> >> structural differences really can be "uncoupled" from ffunctional
> >> differences, and I think this is one of them.
> >>
> >> David Kellogg
> >> Seoul National University of Education
> >>
> >> --- On Sun, 8/30/09, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: [xmca] "The psyche of proletarian children"...
> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 7:01 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi XMCA.
> >> How are you?
> >> I wish fine.
> >>
> >> Please, I'm asking you for a help, one more time.
> >> There is a friend of mine, working with expropriated
> >> children, fighting against "child work expropriation" in the
> >> North-east from my country. And she is looking for a particular
> >> text from Vygotsky, and I suppose that there is no publication
> >> of it, even in Russian. This is the title, seems to be only
> >> the manuscript
> >>
> >> Review of The Psyche of proletarian Children by Otto Rulle
> >> (Moscow-Leningrad, 1926). Private archives of L. S. Vygotsky.
> >> Manucript, 3. pp.
> >> Рец.
> >> на кн.: Отто Рюле. Психика пролетарского ребенка. М.; Л.: ГИЗ, 1926 //
> >> Семейный
> >> арх. Л.С. Выготского. 1926. 3 с. Рукопись.
> >>
> >> But this indication that there is only the manuscript is from 1996'
> >> Lifanova's paper. Then, who knows if there is any publication after...
> >> Do you have any notice about this work, or some general suggestion
> >> of reading something about this subject (the psyche of children
> >> in terms of social classes, and class struggle)?
> >>
> >> Thank you very much about your attention and help.
> >>
> >> Best wishes.
> >> Achilles.
> >> >From Brazil.
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