Re: [xmca] Re: Kant and the Strange Situation

[Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@yahoo.com>]

Martin,
What do you want to explicate ?
You have had this : 
[[Reflection (German: Widerspiegelung; Russian: otrazhenie)
"A basic concept of the materialist theory of knowledge and its core -the theory of reflection. The dialectical materialist theory of reflection distinguishes between reflection in inorganic nature, on the one hand, and in living nature and social life, on the other, where it is active and is exercised by highly organised systems possessing an independent force of reaction, such as biological metabolism at the lowest level and the deliberate creative, anticipative and transformative activity of man at the highest. 
In inorganic nature reflection is the property of things to reproduce, under the influence of other things, such traces, imprints and reactions whose structure accords with some quality of the things that exercise the influence. But these imprints are not utilised by the things themselves. In living nature they are used for self-preservation and self-adaptation, e.g., the irritability of plants and simple organisms. 
Psychic reflection develops with the appearance and evolution of the nervous system and brain, through which the higher nervous conditioned reflex and psychic activity is exercised, securing the behavioural orientation and regulation of a subject-organism in the environment. The psychic reflection of men and animals has two sides: 1) content and 2) form, i.e., the mode of existence, expression and transformation of this content. Human knowledge differs in quality from the psychic reflection of animals because it is social by nature" (Frolov, 1984: 353).]] 
Neither Frolov was out of his senses in giving the definition nor Charles Tolman . What else do you want ? You can come up with your critical points on the definition and we will then understand what your original idea is . Reading the first line takes you right to your destination . 
You have read many times and times : 
*Ideality is the subjective reflection of the objective world* . Your reasons why this is not true/practically logical # formally logical , the latter you renounced recently . My problem is the *genesis* or *genetics*  of *culture* . It's everything ; but where does it come from ? You think I'm too alien to this idea I've not got my answer so far ?? BTW *reflection as you do know *does have effect* but that's what entails from *reflection* ; That effect is ultimate *reification* , the endpoint of one round of *ideality* , at the level of analysis . 
With Very Best Wishes 
Haydi 
 
 
 


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:

From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Kant and the Strange Situation
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:10 AM

Thanks, Ed. I'm reading the dictionary definition of 'reflection,'
and
there's nothing even close to 'having an effect.' But I've
surfed around and
the word is indeed translated as reflection. Does your Russian dictionary
provide any more detail?

Martin
 


On 1/4/09 9:12 PM, "Ed Wall" <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:

> Martin
> 
>         It appears the root is more or less
> 
>                          отрaжáть (отрaзить)
> 
> 
> and, at least according to my dictionary, has the sense of  reflecting
> or having an effect. However, my qualifications are dated.
> 
> Ed
> 
> On Jan 4, 2009, at 7:01 PM, Martin Packer wrote:
> 
>> At the end of last year several of us were trying to figure out
>> whether
>> 'reflection' is a good term to translate the way Vygotsky and
>> leontiev wrote
>> about 'mental' activity. Michael Roth pointed out that the
German
>> word that
>> Marx used was Widerspiegeln rather than Reflektion (see below). I
>> don't
>> think anyone identified the Russian word that was used. I still
>> haven't
>> found time to trace the word in Vygotsky's texts, English and
>> Russian. But
>> an article by Charles Tolman suggests that the Russian term was
>> 'otrazhenie.'  Online translators don't like this word:
can any
>> Russian
>> speakers suggest how it might be translated?
>> 
>> Reflection (German: Widerspiegelung; Russian: otrazhenie)
>> 
>> Tolman, C.W. (1988). The basic vocabulary of Activity Theory. Activity
>> Theory, 1, 14-20.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> On 10/25/08 12:40 PM, "Wolff-Michael Roth"
<mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Martin,
>>> 
>>> Marx does indeed use the term "widerspiegeln" in the
sentence you
>>> cite.
>>> 
>>> Das Gehirn der
>>> Privatproduzenten spiegelt diesen doppelten gesellschaftlichen
>>> Charakter ihrer Privatarbeiten nur wider in den Formen, welche im
>>> praktischen Verkehr, im Produktenaustausch erscheinen - den
>>> gesellschaftlich
>>> nützlichen Charakter ihrer Privatarbeiten also in
>>> der Form, daß das Arbeitsprodukt nützlich sein muß, und zwar
für
>>> andre - den gesellschaftlichen Charakter der Gleichheit der
>>> verschiedenartigen
>>> Arbeiten in der Form des gemeinsamen Wertcharakters
>>> dieser materiell verschiednen Dinge, der Arbeitsprodukte.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> But the Duden, the reference work of German language says that
there
>>> are 2 different senses. One is reflection as in a mirror, the
other
>>> one that something brings to expression. In this context, I do not
>>> see Marx draw on the mirror idea.
>>> 
>>> For those who have trouble, perhaps the analogy with mathematical
>>> functions. In German, what a mathematical function does is
>>> "abbilden," which is, provide a projection of, or
reflection, or
>>> whatever. You have the word Bild, image, picture in the verb. But
>>> when you look at functions, only y = f(x) = x, or -x gives you
what
>>> you would get in the mirror analogy. You get very different things
>>> when you use different functions, log functions, etc. Then the
>>> relationship between the points on a line no longer is the same in
>>> the "image", that is, the target domain.
>>> 
>>> We sometimes see the word "refraction" in the works of
Russian
>>> psychologists, which may be better than reflection. It allows you
to
>>> think of looking at the world through a kaleidoscope, and you get
all
>>> sorts of things, none of which look like "the real
thing."
>>> 
>>> Michael
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 25-Oct-08, at 9:01 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael,
>>> 
>>> Here's one example from Marx, and several from Leontiev, if we
can
>>> get into
>>> the Russian too.
>>> 
>>> "The twofold social character of the labour of the individual
>>> appears to
>>> him, when *reflected* in his brain, only under those forms which
are
>>> impressed upon that labour in every-day practice by the exchange
of
>>> products." Marx, Capital, Chapter 1, section 4.
>>> 
>>> " Activity is a non-additive unit of the corporeal, material
life
>>> of the
>>> material subject. In the narrower sense, i.e., on the
psychological
>>> plane,
>>> it is a unit of life, mediated by mental *reflection*, by an
*image,*
>>> whose
>>> real function is to orientate the subject in the objective
world."
>>> Leontiev,
>>> Activity & Consciousness.
>>> 
>>> " The circular nature of the processes effecting the
interaction of
>>> the
>>> organism with the environment has been generally acknowledged. But
>>> the main
>>> thing is not this circular structure as such, but the fact that
the
>>> mental
>>> *reflection* of the objective world is not directly generated by
the
>>> external influences themselves, but by the processes through which
>>> the
>>> subject comes into practical contact with the objective world, and
>>> which
>>> therefore necessarily obey its independent properties,
connections,
>>> and
>>> relations." ibid
>>> 
>>> " Thus, individual consciousness as a specifically human form
of the
>>> subjective *reflection* of objective reality may be understood
only
>>> as the
>>> product of those relations and mediacies that arise in the course
>>> of the
>>> establishment and development of society." ibid
>>> 
>>> Martin
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>> 
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