Re: [xmca] Marx and Engels works quoted by LSV

From: Bruce Robinson <BRUCE who-is-at BRUCEROB.EU>
Date: Wed Dec 03 2008 - 03:51:52 PST

I'm going from my fallible memory here as I haven't got ime to dig out
references... The German Ideology was first published (in part, I think) in
German in 1902 in Mehring's 'Aus dem literarischen Nachlass von Marx und
Engels'. The 1844 Manuscripts surfaced and were certainly known in the USSR
in 1932 or 1933 (though I'm not sure if they were published then). Ryazanov,
the head of the Marx-Engels Institure which worked on these manuscripts was
purged and died in 1938. The planned complete Russian editon of Marx and
Engels' work was abandoned in the 30s. LSV was clearly familiar with the
German Ideology. Andy, I was wondering what direct evidence there was for
saying he was "acquainted" with the 1844 Manuscripts.

I think the 1844 manuscripts were first published in English in the 50s.
Stuart MacIntyre's book "A Proletarian Science" gives a table of which of
Marx's works were available in English before 1939. It does include some of
the early works but not the manuscripts.

Bruce Robinson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Blunden" <>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Marx and Engels works quoted by LSV

> Achilles, I own all 50 volumes of the English language MECW, plus I have
> transcribed a good proportion of it at
> I also have the LSV CW, so if you have a particular difficulty just ask me
> and I can probably tell you the answer. As the volunteer on
> responsible for the Marx-Engels Archive I get frequent questions of this
> nature.
> It is true that in Vygotsky's lifetime much of Marx's corpus was not
> translated into Russian let alone English and published. I don't think
> this is a matter of Stalinism, just that the work of publishing is vast,
> and is still on going to this day: MEGA2 (CW German) has just been
> published, going beyond what was in MECW published 1975-2005.
> In particular, the 1844 Manuscripts which contain a lot of Marx's early
> speculations about language, human nature and so on, were only just
> discovered and being deciphered in those years, and Vygotsky was
> privileged to be acquainted with them. Likewise, The German Ideology, was
> left by Marx and Engels as a mass of crumpled manuscripts, and deciphering
> them, with all their important observations, took time.
> Andy
> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
>> Greetings for all
>> Can you help me with one more operational question?
>> In the English and Spanish editions of the Collected
>> Works from Vygotky, there are many quotations to
>> Marx in which we cannot directly know what re the
>> actual works quoted, because Vygotsky used a Russian
>> edition of the "Works" of Marx and Engels. Well, I
>> wish to ask you:
>> Is there some available index of that Marx and Engels
>> works quoted by Vygotsky, in which we can recognize
>> the original titles, in order to map what actual works
>> he actually had accessed? I have notice that in stalinist period some
>> Marx works
>> was not availlable, mainly the young "idealist" Marx.
>> Do you confirm this notice? Even you can't help me with this index...
>> more important
>> would be any help in order to give me clues about the
>> marxists texts actually read by Vygotsky.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Achilles
>>> From:
>>> To:
>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Is there something about/from the musicologist
>>> Volochinov?
>>> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:10:53 +0000
>>> Thank you very much David,
>>> Your contribution set me a little confused,
>>> because I had another information from other
>>> source, but now I believe that this source can
>>> be not so trusty. It is the biographical description
>>> of V.N.V. at Russian Wikipedia, as follow:
>>> "Учился на
>>> юридическом факультете Петроградского университета, в 1916 прервал
>>> образование
>>> В начале 1920-х жил в Витебске, опубликовал несколько статей о музыке."
>>> "He learned in the juridical department of Petrograd University,
>>> at 1916 interrupted the
>>> formation. At the beginning of the 1920’s
>>> leaved in Vitebsk, published several articles about
>>> music."
>>> I had believed that we could find some of these articles... And now I do
>>> not now about the existence of these
>>> articles, because your note.
>>> Well, it's fine... You make me to doubt... And to doubt
>>> is very important in order to make dialog goes on.
>>> Thank you again.
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Achilles.
>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:36:48 -0800
>>>> From:
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Is there something about/from the musician
>>>> Volochinov?
>>>> To:
>>>> Dear Achilles:
>>>> I'm no longer sure that Volosinov was a musicologist. The only thing I
>>>> really know about this is the reference to him by as a musicologist by
>>>> Michael Holquist in the introduction to "The Dialogic Imagination", p.
>>>> xxii, and I don't really trust this, because Holquist is trying
>>>> desperately to prove that Volosinov could not have written "Marxism and
>>>> the Philosophy of Language" and it is therefore the work of his hero
>>>> Bakhtin. In this he is certainly wrong.
>>>> I don't see much musicology in Volosinov's work, except the
>>>> much-misunderstood passage where VNV says that the word is a "neutral"
>>>> sign. This is often interpreted to mean that VNV believed in
>>>> non-ideological language. That is absurd, and it only shows how very
>>>> non-neutral our understanding of "ideology" has become.
>>>> For VNV ideology simply means the production of ideas, and language
>>>> that does not in some way engage with the production of ideas is hardly
>>>> language. What VNV does mean is that the word is not like a number or a
>>>> musical note, both of which have become functionally differentiated and
>>>> dedicated signs within a specific field of semiosis and which cannot
>>>> really be used outside of them.
>>>> Volosinov was clearly influenced by Wolfflin's book on painting. But
>>>> I'm pretty sure he wasn't a painter!
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Seoul National University of Education
>>>> --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Achilles Delari Junior
>>>> <> wrote:
>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior <>
>>>> Subject: [xmca] Is there something about/from the musician Volochinov?
>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <>
>>>> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 7:25 PM
>>>> Greetings for all,
>>>> One more operational question to you:
>>>> Is there some wrote production about/
>>>> from the musician Volochinov related to
>>>> music itself, semiotics of music and so
>>>> on?
>>>> There are some musicians in Brazil at Unicamp interested in understand
>>>> musical
>>>> genres aided by bakhtinian theoretical framework, and I had the notice
>>>> that Volochinov was the musician of Bakhtin's
>>>> Circle...
>>>> Can you confirm this information to me
>>>> and give me some biographical suggestions?
>>>> Best wishes
>>>> Thank you very much, one more time. Achilles...
>>>>> From:
>>>>> To:;
>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:37:39 -0600
>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Access to articles and discussion
>>>>> CC:
>>>>> Hi -- I think that at just about every sociocultural-related
>>>>> conference I
>>>> have been to, someone I've been talking with says that she reads XMCA
>>>> but
>>>> never speaks up. These are always people who are doing good work and
>>>> have
>>>> something that needs to be heard. Andy's right, Mike does the job of
>>>> picking
>>>> up the new voices. It's something we should each make an effort to do.
>>>>> Helena
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: [] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Andy Blunden []
>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 5:30 PM
>>>>> To: Tamara Ball
>>>>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Access to articles and discussion
>>>>> Thanks Tamara.
>>>>> Yes, I think the acknowledgment of new voices, when they
>>>>> speak, is vital. Mike always does this, but I think it is
>>>>> quite wrong for the rest of us to just leave that role to
>>>>> Mike, who has enough to do. So, thanks!
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> Tamara Ball wrote:
>>>>>> My humble suggestion is this:
>>>>>> that those of you more experienced and comfortable with the XMCA
>>>>>> discussion forum keep vigilant watch for new voices whenever they do
>>>>>> emerge and then respond. Use the response also as a space for your
>>>> own
>>>>>> assertion, to be sure(perhaps one you would have made anyway), but
>>>> even
>>>>>> the notation of "re:" as the slightest acknowledgment of
>>>> that new voice
>>>>>> is alluring and validating. Any thoughtful response will do - but in
>>>> my
>>>>>> opinion, better if it is not only "sweet", encouraging or
>>>> gentle but
>>>>>> rather truly responsive and generative. In my own novice experience,
>>>>>> intimidation is linked to a feeling of irrelevance which comes with
>>>> the
>>>>>> frayed edges of a thread that is not continued in some way or
>>>> another.
>>>>>> As Andy suggests, workload is always an issue of course, but I do
>>>>>> understand that there are ways that participation in the parlance of
>>>>>> this forum can actually *decrease* workload by creatively and
>>>>>> expeditiously negotiating ideas or problems central to the work each
>>>> of
>>>>>> us has in front of us.
>>>>>> For instance I am in heat of writing a grant proposal that I hope
>>>> will
>>>>>> lead to a multi-year post-doc position that will allow me to expand
>>>> the
>>>>>> work I am already involved with at the Center for Adaptive Optics (
>>>>>> electro-engineering, astronomy and optometry research center with a
>>>>>> strong education component). I can imagine exploring more powerful
>>>> ways
>>>>>> to shape the structure of that work through conversations here that
>>>> are
>>>>>> also linked to the more central debates at hand.
>>>>>> Tamara
>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2008, at 5:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>> Well I'm not one of those who vote and don't discuss but
>>>> I am willing
>>>>>>> to have a guess at issues here, and maybe people will be provoked
>>>> into
>>>>>>> correcting me?
>>>>>>> I have had brief discussions with several people either offline
>>>> or via
>>>>>>> FaceBook who have expressed an interest in xmca discussions but
>>>> say
>>>>>>> (basically) they are not clever enough to contribute. Having been
>>>>>>> assured that this is absolutely not the case, they later go on to
>>>>>>> become contributors. For some, it is that fear of speaking up and
>>>>>>> maybe getting their heads bitten off. In other cases, I am sure,
>>>> it is
>>>>>>> a simple matter of the insanity of academic workloads already
>>>> driving
>>>>>>> people to the edge.
>>>>>>> I have racked my brain and failed to come up with a viable means
>>>> of
>>>>>>> resolving this, other than being civil and respectful in
>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>> When I asked about Bobath, someone who had never spoken before
>>>> spoke
>>>>>>> up saying "At last something I feel qualified to speak
>>>> on." Likewise,
>>>>>>> when I asked for help for my brother with his daughter's
>>>> maths
>>>>>>> problems, loads of really helpful and knowledgeable people spoke
>>>> up.
>>>>>>> But the general debate, people seem to find intimidating. And
>>>> yet, in
>>>>>>> my experience, unjustifiably so.
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> Mike Cole wrote:
>>>>>>>> I fear that at present the article to be made available free
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>> at Taylor and Francis
>>>>>>>> has not been released. The ever-lengthening duration of
>>>> Thanksgiving
>>>>>>>> holiday
>>>>>>>> has probably not
>>>>>>>> helped matters. Consequently, many, probabaly most, members
>>>> of xmca
>>>>>>>> do not
>>>>>>>> have access to the
>>>>>>>> article in question by Stetsenko and Sawchuk. We are working
>>>> on it.
>>>>>>>> The issue of discussion of article in MCA that are not made
>>>> available
>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>> is even more difficult and we
>>>>>>>> are working on that too. We have a situation where often two
>>>> or more
>>>>>>>> articles are ones that people want
>>>>>>>> to discuss but we are unlikely to get T&F to offer the
>>>> journal for
>>>>>>>> free. So
>>>>>>>> we are discussing with them
>>>>>>>> the cost of electronic versions so that acces to people
>>>> without the
>>>>>>>> financial means to get access can
>>>>>>>> be handled in a viable way.
>>>>>>>> Simultaneously, I would not that more than 30 people voted to
>>>> discuss the
>>>>>>>> Sanino article, but to date, very
>>>>>>>> few people have availed themselves of the opportunity they
>>>> obtained
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> group by their votes. I take
>>>>>>>> this to be a problem and would appreciate suggestions for
>>>> making XMCA
>>>>>>>> a more
>>>>>>>> multi-voiced forum for
>>>>>>>> discussion. Might the overwhelming majority of people who
>>>> voted for
>>>>>>>> discussion of this article but who have
>>>>>>>> failed to comment on it help me and others understand what is
>>>> a foot.
>>>>>>>> Is it
>>>>>>>> amplification or amputation, perhaps some productive
>>>> transformation,
>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>> The academic semester/quarter draws to a close in the United
>>>> States. The
>>>>>>>> stock market is open in Asia. The people of Mumbai, Peshewar,
>>>> Ramadi,
>>>>>>>> Eastern Congo, flood raviged Brazil and elsewhere bury their
>>>> dead.
>>>>>>>> The polar
>>>>>>>> bears, I hear, are enjoying a cool winter, but word is sparse
>>>> from
>>>>>>>> that part
>>>>>>>> of the world. The future beckons. What is that she is holding
>>>> in her
>>>>>>>> hand?
>>>>>>>> Or is it behind our backs?
>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> <>
>>>>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden +61 3 9380 9435 Skype
>>>>>>> andy.blunden
>>>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> <>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden +61 3 9380 9435
>>>>> Skype andy.blunden
>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
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>>>>> xmca mailing list
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