Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links)

Maybe you will encourage translations of Ivanov, Achilles.
Luria has a rather remarkable, "Eisenshteinian" short film he
made while visiting Stanford university in 1959 (I think). We did not
include on the CD with the revised autobiography, but it exists somewhere.
It is not (in my inexpert opinion) a work of distinction, but could only be
of interest to those who find the luria-Eisenshtein connection of interest.
mike

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, thank you. I don't want detour your actual focus.
> And there is no haste, at all. This book of Ivanov is the
> same suggested by Bella's friend. "Ocherki po istorii semiotiki
> v SSSR". There is a version on-line, seems to be reliable:
> http://philologos.narod.ru/semiotics/ivanov_semio.htm
> In chapter 2 "Analysis of deep structures of semiotic systems
> of art", the names of Eisenshtein and Vygotsky (much more
> the first than the second) are quoted several times.
> I couldn't translate to Portuguese yet (and I actually will
> not make a great translation, of course... but is possible
> to read something, collecting cues). Well, I have so much
> to see, and you helped me very much, mainly because you
> understand to be something worthwhile. (a) The letters
> Eisenshtein-Luria, (b) the cinematic shooting of Luria, and
> (c) the material used by Luria and Vygosky studing the
> audience of Eisenstein's movies, would be interesting to try
> rescue in future, if there will be something preserved yet,
> perhaps it will not be possible, but nothing to lost in asking
> for, in appropriate time.
>
> Best wishes, good work on your educational matters. Maybe
> in future something from here can approaches "Aesthetic Edu-
> ducation" too, who knows? Vygotsky's aesthetic education
> seemed to be more linked with literary questions, but, at present
> day, inter-semiotic sistems, devices, of artistic production are
> in every places, including at school.
>
> And thank you again, for all.
> Achilles
>
> > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 10:32:38 -0800
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links)
> >
> > Keep at it Achilles, This is a good topic. Have you found the Engestrom
> > piece
> > on archives of newsletter of lchc on the lchc web page? Use google on
> home
> > page of lchc to find it.
> >
> > There is a very important book by V.V. Ivanov, "The history of semiotics
> in
> > the
> > USSR" which has a lot on Eisenshtein and Vygotsky that I have been trying
> to
> > get translated for 30 years. I will cc Pentti to see if he can make
> progress
> > on this
> > through JREEP.
> >
> > I fear I must now focus on local educational matters for a while but am
> sure
> > this
> > line of thought is most worthwhile. Also, Lotman on semiotics of cinema
> must
> > be valuable.
> > mike
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The Memory of Tiresias
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh, Thanks, Mike, I immediately have searched and found something in
> > > Portuguese, seems to be very interesting. I will read your suggestion.
> I
> > > think this subject "synesthesia" as a possible connection between
> psychology
> > > and movie. But other concepts are important like the "generalized
> image"
> > > that you quote, but I don't search well yet – and I don´t know the
> > > relationships between this "generalized image" and "synesthesia", for
> > > instance. In addition I'm thinking about the problems of "inner speech"
> and
> > > "subtext"… There is a book from Mikhail Iampolski about
> "Intertextuality and
> > > Film", with a chapter only dedicated to Eisenstein, called "The
> Invisible
> > > Text as a Universal Equivalent: Sergei Eisenstein" (Chapter Seven), and
> he
> > > discusses the influences of Tynianov's work about Pushkin over
> Eisenstein's
> > > reflections about "substitution" and "subtext". Well, nothing related
> to
> > > Vygotsky and Luria? But "subtext" was important in Vygotsky´s chapter 7
> > > (Though and word), even in relation to Stanislavsky's theater. The
> "hidden"
> > > aspects of meaning/sense formation seems to be the point, here, in art
> or in
> > > everyday life. What do you think?
> > >
> > > "Like Tynianov, Eisenstein was intrigued by the theme of substitution,
> of a
> > > subtext that might be hidden, but from an angle quite remote from
> Tynianov's
> > > own preoccupations. Eisenstein's interest lay not so much in the
> situation
> > > of intertextuality itself (in the widest sense of the term, as when a
> text
> > > acquires its full meaning through some reference to an extratextual
> reality)
> > > as in the existence of some mysterious, hidden equivalent that permits
> the
> > > juxtaposition of these various extratextual realities." (Iampolski,
> 1998, p.
> > > 222)
> > >
> > > IAMPOLSKI, Mikhail (1998) The Memory of Tiresias: Intertextuality and
> Film.
> > > Berkeley · Los Angeles: Oxford University of California Press.
> > >
> > > Synesthesia, inner speach, subtext, substitution, intertextuality,
> movie,
> > > play, drama, action... inter-semiotic process.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 09:02:23 -0800
> > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links)
> > > >
> > > > I would like to think that Ramachandran's work is not unrelated to
> > > Luria's,
> > > > Achilles. He is, among other things, quite expert on art. You can
> find a
> > > lot
> > > > on google. This springs up early:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.neurologyreviews.com/jul02/nr_jul02_mindseye.html
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know about Ramachandran, Mike. I have understood only that
> > > > > synesthesia was a property
> > > > > of Shereshevsky memory, and what Eisenstein have conceptualized
> that
> > > > > process as one of the
> > > > > properties of normal people's understanding movie language. But,
> maybe
> > > not
> > > > > the main property or
> > > > > aspect, I don't know. This coming back of "this idea" in the US
> implied
> > > > > some misunderstanding?
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:07:34 -0800
> > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This idea of synethesia has made a big come back with the work of
> > > > > > Ramachandran and other neuroscientists here in the US, Achilles.
> Not
> > > sure
> > > > > > what the best references are.
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, only to add a file to folder…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eisenshtein at Luria's "The mind of a mnemonist"
> > > > > > > key-word: synesthesia...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) Shereshevski talking about Eisenstein's voice(s):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "You know there are people who seem to have many
> > > > > > > voices, whose voices seem to be an entire composition,
> > > > > > > a bouquet. The late S. M. Eisenstein had just such a
> > > > > > > voice: listening to him, it was as though a flame with
> > > > > > > fibers protruding from it was advancing right toward
> > > > > > > me. I got so interested in his voice, I couldn't follow
> > > > > > > what he was saying..." (p.24)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) Luria quoting Eisenstein I
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "There is another aspect to interpreting words
> > > > > > > synesthetically (determining meaning, that is,
> > > > > > > through both sound and sense). Whereas certain
> > > > > > > words seem not to fit the meaning they conventionally
> > > > > > > have, and therefore leave one nonplussed, the
> > > > > > > sound qualities of other words take on particular
> > > > > > > expressive force. S.'s experience of words was
> > > > > > > actually a measure of their expressiveness. No wonder,
> > > > > > > then, that S. M. Eisenstein, the producer, to
> > > > > > > whom the dynamics of expression were of such
> > > > > > > crucial importance in his own work, was so intrigued
> > > > > > > with S." (90-91)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) Luria quoting Eisenstein II
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Poets, as we know, are extremely sensitive to the
> > > > > > > expressive quality of sounds, And I remember, too,
> > > > > > > that S. M. Eisenstein, in testing students to select
> > > > > > > those he would train as film directors, asked them
> > > > > > > to describe their impressions of the variations on the
> > > > > > > name Mariya (Mariya, Mary, Marusya). He
> > > > > > > found this an infallible way to single out those who
> > > > > > > were keenly sensitive to the expressive force of
> > > > > > > words.
> > > > > > > This ability was developed to such a degree in
> > > > > > > S. that he never failed to detect the expressive qualities
> > > > > > > of sounds. It was only natural, then, that words
> > > > > > > which others accept as synonyms would have different
> > > > > > > meanings for him." (92-93)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > LURIA A. R. (1968) The mind of a mnemonist - A Little Book
> about a
> > > Vast
> > > > > > > Memory. Trans. from the Russian by Lynn Solotaroff. With a
> Foreword
> > > by
> > > > > > > Jerome S. Bruner. New York / London: Basic Books, Inc.,
> Publishers
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These are all direct quotations to Eisenstein at this book...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Achilles…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links)
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:02:02 +0000
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Excuse me, only more a single little addition:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > These "various kinds of cinematic shooting for scientific
> > > purposes"
> > > > > > > > organized by Luria at the Institute of Cinematography, at the
> end
> > > of
> > > > > > > > the 1920's (mentioned by Khomskaia) are very interesting
> > > historical
> > > > > > > > sources too (if they survived in time, by any way) - related
> to
> > > > > > > > Eisenstein's aesthetical influences on making film or not. I
> > > guess
> > > > > > > > that to have any notice about that "cinematic shooting" could
> be
> > > > > > > > great too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links
> to
> > > > > chain)
> > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:04:02 +0000
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It's great, Mike. A friend of Bella suggested a book of
> Ivanov
> > > > > "Ocherki
> > > > > > > po istorii semiotiki v SSSR". There is a version on-line, seems
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > reliable:
> > > > > > > > > http://philologos.narod.ru/semiotics/ivanov_semio.htm
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In chapter 2 "Analysis of deep structures of semiotic
> systems
> > > of
> > > > > art",
> > > > > > > the names of Eisenshtein and Vygotsky (much more the first than
> the
> > > > > second)
> > > > > > > are quoted several times. But I couldn't translate yet (well,
> > > actually
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > not be a great translation...).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vygotsky's works quoted by Ivanov along the book are:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1 Выготский 1956: Л. С. Выготский. Мышление и речь.
> Избранные
> > > > > > > психологические исследования. М., 1956.
> > > > > > > > > 2 Выготский 1960: Л. С. Выготский. Развитие высших
> психических
> > > > > функций.
> > > > > > > Из неопубликованных трудов. М., 1960.
> > > > > > > > > 3 Выготский 1968: Л. С. Выготский. Психология искусства.
> Изд.
> > > 2.
> > > > > М.,
> > > > > > > 1968.
> > > > > > > > > (I think there are no quotes to Eisenstein by Vygotsky in
> these
> > > > > books,
> > > > > > > that I remember... The relationship must be conceptual,
> subtextual,
> > > but
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can search for direct quotations too, later)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The number of Eisenshtein's works quoted along Ivanov´s
> book is
> > > > > bigger
> > > > > > > than Vygotsky's:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1 Эйзенштейн 1945: S. Eisenstein. Film form. Film sense.
> Ed. 2.
> > > NY,
> > > > > > > 1957.
> > > > > > > > > 2 Эйзенштейн 1966: С. М. Эйзенштейн. [Письмо Ю. Н.
> Тынянову]. –
> > > В
> > > > > кн.:
> > > > > > > «Юрий Тынянов. Писатель и ученый». М., 1966.
> > > > > > > > > 3 Эйзенштейн 1962: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Зараза моих
> теоретических
> > > > > > > положений. «Вопросы теории и истории киноискусства». М., 1962.
> > > > > > > > > 4 Эйзенштейн 1964 а, б, в: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные
> > > > > произведения, т.
> > > > > > > 1, 2, 3. М., 1964.
> > > > > > > > > 5 Эйзенштейн 1966: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные
> произведения, т.
> > > 4.
> > > > > М.,
> > > > > > > 1966.
> > > > > > > > > 6 Эйзенштейн 1968: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные
> произведения, т.
> > > 5.
> > > > > М.,
> > > > > > > 1968.
> > > > > > > > > 7 Эйзенштейн 1969: Сб. «Броненосец Потемкин». М., 1969.
> > > > > > > > > 8 Эйзенштейн 1973: С. М. Эйзенштейн. «Капитал». –
> «Искусство
> > > кино»,
> > > > > > > 1973, № 1.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (4, 5 and 6 are selected works, I can't know the actual
> titles
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > texts quoted - I search for possible works in what Eisenstein
> > > quotes
> > > > > > > directly Vygotsky, I guess this occurs at Film form and/or Film
> > > sense,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > don´t remember).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I will try to read Ivanov's contribution, as soon as I can
> - in
> > > > > order
> > > > > > > to find some more connections, "inner speach" seems to be an
> > > important
> > > > > > > common point.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:52:09 -0800
> > > > > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein
> (links to
> > > > > chain)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There are new leads in those passages from Khomskaya,
> which I
> > > had
> > > > > > > forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > about, Achilles. I will try to follow up with friends in
> > > Moscow.
> > > > > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > (off topic)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Note to my last post...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) "M.I. Knebel", must be "M.O. Knebel" too - Maria
> > > Ossipovna
> > > > > > > (Iossifovna)
> > > > > > > > > > > Knebel' (1898-1985)...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 2) Luria and Knebel's text must be:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > * Кнебель М. И., Лурия А. Р. Пути и средства
> декодирования
> > > > > смысла.—
> > > > > > > Вопросы
> > > > > > > > > > > психологии, 1971, № 4, с. 76—83.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Puty i sredstva
> dekodirovaniya
> > > > > smysla
> > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > Voprosy psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Ways and Means of decoding
> of
> > > > > sense. -
> > > > > > > Voprosy
> > > > > > > > > > > psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I remove my questions about this dyad and this very
> > > interesting
> > > > > > > text, and
> > > > > > > > > > > ask you only about Luria & Eisenstein's letters
> > > availability -
> > > > > > > thank you.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Achilles
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein
> > > (links to
> > > > > > > chain)
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 03:39:11 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, thank you, Mike… I clearly understand your
> sugestion
> > > and
> > > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I collected two references to Eisenstein at Luria's
> > > biography
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > Evgenia
> > > > > > > > > > > Homskaya… A book well known of you, but to me is a good
> > > > > surprise
> > > > > > > (I'm far
> > > > > > > > > > > away from actual university tasks since 2000). After
> quote,
> > > I
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > ask
> > > > > > > > > > > little questions in order to know where can I search
> > > better.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Evgenia D. Homskaya: Alexander Romanovich Luria: A
> > > Scientific
> > > > > > > Biography.
> > > > > > > > > > > Plenum Series in Russian Neuropsychology. New
> > > > > > > > > > > York/Boston/Dordrecht/London/Moscow: Kluwer
> Academic/Plenum
> > > > > > > Publishers,
> > > > > > > > > > > 2001.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "An important event in Luria's private life also
> occurred
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > years in Kazan. He met his wife, Vera Nikolayevna
> > > Blagovidova,
> > > > > also
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > student at the University of Kazan. Later, in Moscow,
> she
> > > > > became an
> > > > > > > actress
> > > > > > > > > > > at the studio of the famous theatrical director, A. Y.
> > > Tairov.
> > > > > They
> > > > > > > got
> > > > > > > > > > > married at the beginning of 1923 but their union lasted
> > > only
> > > > > ultil
> > > > > > > 1929. In
> > > > > > > > > > > this relatively short period, however, Luria developed
> most
> > > of
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > artistic
> > > > > > > > > > > interests in theater, painting, poetry, and so on. It
> was
> > > then
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > > > became acquainted with the master of the world's
> cinema,
> > > Sergei
> > > > > M.
> > > > > > > > > > > EISENSTEIN."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > (Chapter 1. Childhood and Youth – p. 13)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "During the 1940s Luria kept in close touch with the
> > > famous
> > > > > film
> > > > > > > director
> > > > > > > > > > > S. M. EISENSTEIN, who made such masterpieces of world
> > > cinema as
> > > > > > > Potemkim and
> > > > > > > > > > > Ivan The Terrible. Since becoming acquainted in the
> 1920s,
> > > > > Luria
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > Eisenstein shareda a common interest in the psychology
> of
> > > art,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > psychological aspects of artistic expressiveness.
> > > Eisenstein
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > > > > very much in the phenomenon of the mnemonist
> Shereshevsky,
> > > > > studied
> > > > > > > by Luria.
> > > > > > > > > > > In 1929, through Luria's recommendation, EISENSTEIN was
> > > > > introduced
> > > > > > > to Kurt
> > > > > > > > > > > Lewin, with whom he discussed the problem of artistic
> > > > > > > expressiveness. At the
> > > > > > > > > > > end of the 1920's, Luria organized at the Istitute of
> > > > > > > Cinematography to
> > > > > > > > > > > execute various kinds of cinematic shooting for
> scientific
> > > > > > > purposes. In the
> > > > > > > > > > > 1930s, Luria and EISENSTEIN continued to exchange
> letters.
> > > > > Their
> > > > > > > > > > > correspondence continued during the Kharkov period and
> > > during
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > war. After
> > > > > > > > > > > the war, and until EISENSTEIN's sudden death in 1948,
> they
> > > > > often
> > > > > > > met, shared
> > > > > > > > > > > books, and talked. Under Luria's influence, EISENSTEIN
> > > wrote
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > > > > "Psychology of art" and "Lectures on the Psychology of
> Art"
> > > > > (see
> > > > > > > Eisenstein,
> > > > > > > > > > > 1987, 1988-1996, 1998).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The psychology of art was also a particular theme for
> > > Luria
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > > > > > (see Vygotsky's book, the Psychology of Art, Moscow,
> 1982).
> > > In
> > > > > > > Luria's
> > > > > > > > > > > background, this theme is not very well known, although
> its
> > > > > > > expressions were
> > > > > > > > > > > very numeros and diverse. For example, his article
> written
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > well-known film director, M. I. Knebel, "Ways and Means
> of
> > > > > Semantic
> > > > > > > Coding"
> > > > > > > > > > > (1971R), discussed verbal and nonverbal aspects of
> speech
> > > > > (mime,
> > > > > > > gestures)
> > > > > > > > > > > and was important for both the psychology of speech and
> the
> > > > > > > psychology of
> > > > > > > > > > > art."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > (Chapter 4, The Forties: World War II and the
> > > Rehabilitation
> > > > > > > > > > > Hospital-Neuropsychology in the Making - p. 39)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ******
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Well. I only ask you for these wonderful letters and
> for
> > > > > Luria's
> > > > > > > article
> > > > > > > > > > > with M. I. Knebel – if it could give us some cues about
> > > what
> > > > > Luria
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > > about movies and about Eisenshtein's influence in his
> > > thinking
> > > > > > > about this as
> > > > > > > > > > > well… In other hand, the articles of Eisenstein about
> > > > > "Psychology
> > > > > > > of Art"
> > > > > > > > > > > seems to be the same quoted by Christie & Taylor (1993)
> > > > > published
> > > > > > > in Leyda
> > > > > > > > > > > (ed.) "The Psychology of Composition" – this book is
> > > already
> > > > > > > available. Do
> > > > > > > > > > > you think that can exist more than two papers requested
> to
> > > > > > > Eisenstein for
> > > > > > > > > > > Luria? My copy here don´t have the actual references,
> and I
> > > > > don´t
> > > > > > > have the
> > > > > > > > > > > book itself yet... And my option was to aquire Leyda
> edited
> > > > > > > Eisenstein's, by
> > > > > > > > > > > the moment.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > All the titles I have are the following:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > * Eisenstein, "Psychology of Art", in Psycholgia
> > > > > > > > > > > > Processov Chudojestvennogo Tvorchestva
> (Moscow,
> > > > > 1980), p.
> > > > > > > 195
> > > > > > > > > > > > (quoted by JULIA VASSILIEVA in her paper "Eisenstein
> and
> > > his
> > > > > > > Method:
> > > > > > > > > > > recent publications in Russia")
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > * "The psychology of composition" (211)
> > > > > > > > > > > > * "The psychology of art" (211)
> > > > > > > > > > > > * "The psychology of compositon" (same title... but
> > > another
> > > > > text
> > > > > > > - at
> > > > > > > > > > > 249)
> > > > > > > > > > > > (at the contents of Eisenstein, S.M. "The
> Eisenstein´s
> > > > > > > Collection".
> > > > > > > > > > > Edited by Richard Taylor. Sagull Books, 2006)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm seeing that I can not give meaninful
> contributions. I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > made a
> > > > > > > > > > > question, and now I only have some other questions to
> make
> > > > > again.
> > > > > > > I'll wait
> > > > > > > > > > > for other XMCA contributions, by Mike and all the
> people
> > > when
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > possible. And I will continue search data where it are
> > > > > availlable
> > > > > > > to me here
> > > > > > > > > > > and now. This was not my main goal today (I was
> thinking
> > > things
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > psychology and mental health), but sometimes an action
> > > becomes
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > activity,
> > > > > > > > > > > no?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much, and my best wishes,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:43:02 -0700
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein
> > > (links
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > chain)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be great to get the info on Eisenshtein
> and
> > > > > LSV/ARL.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > entire Stanislavsy and beyond discussion is quite
> > > broad.
> > > > > Yrjo
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > > > written on this topic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/31/08, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/31/08, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To add more two or three links to a
> chain-complex
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> 1) About Luria and Eisenshtein: "Eisenstein
> planned
> > > two
> > > > > > > courses on
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> psychology of art at Luria's request, in 1940
> and
> > > 1947
> > > > > (both
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > Leyda
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> (ed.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "The Psychology of Composition")." (Christie &
> > > Taylor,
> > > > > 1993,
> > > > > > > p. 225
> > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Endnote 87); I ask for an used edition at
> amazon,
> > > seems
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > be fine.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "Psychology of Composition" sounds like an
> > > interesting
> > > > > title
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > subject
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> me, composing evoques spinozian concept of
> "joy".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> 2) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky
> similarity:
> > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > a very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting note by Nikolai Veresov commenting
> > > > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > > "genetic
> > > > > > > > > > > law of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> cultural development" explaining something about
> > > what
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > means by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "Category":
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "Category is the philosophical concept. How can
> one
> > > > > imagine
> > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> function exists as a category? Sounds strange,
> but
> > > > > according
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> STANISLAVSKY
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> (famous theatre director Vygotsky used to know)
> AND
> > > > > Sergey
> > > > > > > > > > > EISENSHTEIN
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> (filmmaker and a friend of Vygotsky) "category"
> in
> > > the
> > > > > drama
> > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "collision", "event", dramatic unit, and the
> unit of
> > > > > > > analysis of
> > > > > > > > > > > drama:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> might be a dialogue (mostly) or emotional
> explosion
> > > and
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > on.
> > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> speaking about development as a process of
> events,
> > > > > > > collisions and
> > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> reflections in both planes." (N. VERESOV) (Caps
> > > mine)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Available at
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/schmolze1/vygotsky/vygotsky.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don´t know the actual source yet - If there is
> a
> > > book
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > paper by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Verosov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> about these matters. I will check.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> 3) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky
> differences:
> > > > > > > Eisenshtein
> > > > > > > > > > > seemed to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> closer to Meyerhold than to Stanislavsky, the
> pome
> > > of
> > > > > Eris
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> differences of emphasis in verbal or non-verbal
> > > > > components
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > actor's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> play... but this stands only like um more
> question,
> > > not
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > secure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> information. Seems that there was, at that time,
> > > some
> > > > > kind
> > > > > > > of fight
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> against
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> "verbalization" in theatre, in which Meyerhold
> was
> > > > > activily
> > > > > > > > > > > envolved, but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the actual role of Eisenshtein in that dispute
> is
> > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > clear to
> > > > > > > > > > > me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Eisenstein movies seems to operate with some
> kind of
> > > > > > > "pictograms",
> > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> nothing to affirm about absolutily dispense
> "words",
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > "inner
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> speach" - must be something about this in his
> own
> > > > > writings,
> > > > > > > quoting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Vygotsky, I guess that I remember something like
> > > this in
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > work of a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> filmmaker friend of mine, some talks with her.
> But
> > > it
> > > > > was a
> > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ago,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> too. I remain in my thinking by complex, you
> know.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> What do you think about these links? There are
> > > something
> > > > > > > useful?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thank you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and
> Eisenshtein
> > > (a
> > > > > > > question)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:02:11 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Oh, it's great, Mike...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Borges wrote a tale named "Funes..."
> recreating
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Shereshevsky... you know. So
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> seems that there is very artistic features in
> real
> > > > > human
> > > > > > > psychic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> experience. About "generalized
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> image" I will see... Is this concept at "Iazik
> i
> > > > > soznanie"?
> > > > > > > We have
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Portuguese version. I have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> read many years ago. I don't remember if I knew
> > > this
> > > > > > > concept , even
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> another book. It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> occurs to me, right now, to search immediately
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > about what
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> system
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> of acting was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> used by Eisenstein's actors, if we can find any
> > > > > relation
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Stanislavsky's system of creative
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> actor's work... studied by Vygotsky discussed
> in
> > > the
> > > > > text
> > > > > > > from 1932
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> (publish in Collected Woks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> vol. 6 - prologue by Dot Robbins), and so
> important
> > > in
> > > > > 1934
> > > > > > > > > > > (thought and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> word) with the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> notion of "subtext"... If you tell us about
> > > > > psychological
> > > > > > > studies
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> audience, and the feelings
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> and understanding of audience, the way that
> film is
> > > > > > > constructed and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> actor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> plays their roles
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> must be interesting to study too. After all,
> all we
> > > > > must to
> > > > > > > act...
> > > > > > > > > > > (as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> "akt", and as "postuk").
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I had think about the other way of mutual
> > > influences in
> > > > > > > dialog
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> psychology-movie too: what we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> can learn from movie semiotics? And/or what
> about
> > > > > > > Eisenstein can
> > > > > > > > > > > teach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> something to historical-
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> cultural approach? For instance, the notion of
> > > > > > > "non-indifferent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> nature"...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I'm thinking by complex,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> like ever I do. But now, it's the only way I
> can
> > > think.
> > > > > And
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> links that I can put in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> chain until now. And we even need a thesis and
> the
> > > > > young
> > > > > > > guy/girl
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> in mind - I hope this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> person can will arise soon in this context...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I will see something about Eisenshtein and
> > > > > Stanislavsky,
> > > > > > > right now.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> What do you think? It can be useful?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Thank very much, for all your contributions
> since
> > > > > before,
> > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> years
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> ago.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:10:46 -0700
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and
> > > Eisenshtein
> > > > > (a
> > > > > > > question)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Excellent question. Lets see what we can find
> > > out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > There are references in Eisenshtein's
> published
> > > work
> > > > > > > about his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > activities
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Shereshevsky, the mnemonist. And there is, I
> > > believe,
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > close
> > > > > > > > > > > relation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > between the idea of "generalized image" in
> Luria
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > Eisenshtein's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > notion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > montage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > All we need is a bright young person with a
> > > thesis in
> > > > > > > mind and a
> > > > > > > > > > > ghost
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > chance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > of getting it done in this context.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Achilles
> Delari
> > > > > Junior <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Greetings for all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > One more extemporaneous question.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > If I'm not misremembering, in "Making
> mind",
> > > Mike
> > > > > Cole
> > > > > > > exposes
> > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > interesting data about Luria and Vygotsky's
> > > works
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > audience
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Eisenshtein's movies, didn't he expose?
> > > Puzirey, I
> > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > well,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > said
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > something about Eisenshtein's reading of
> > > > > "Psychology of
> > > > > > > Art",
> > > > > > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > files
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > of Eisenshtein's personal library was
> founded
> > > an
> > > > > > > exemplar of
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > book,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > which at several places are underlined the
> > > words
> > > > > > > "contend and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > form"...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > basis for his own work has filmmaker. But,
> what
> > > > > more we
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > works with audience? Everything was loosed
> with
> > > > > War? Is
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > follower or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > co-worker that have dedicate even a single
> book
> > > or
> > > > > > > paper about
> > > > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > researchs? I Have thinking about these
> > > questions
> > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > 1991-1994
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > I had
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > read the fragments that I quote here, and
> only
> > > now
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can ask
> > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > It's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > not my main subject now, but I'm concerning
> > > with it
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > personal
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > way,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > why not to ask for? Somebody can give me
> some
> > > help?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Thank you very much for your attention and
> > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Conheça o Windows Live Spaces, a rede de
> > > > > > > relacionamentos do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Messenger!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br/_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Confira vídeos com notícias do NY Times, gols
> > > direto do
> > > > > > > Lance,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> videocassetadas e muito mais no MSN Video!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://video.msn.com/?mkt=pt-br_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Cansado de espaço para só 50 fotos? Conheça o
> > > Spaces, o
> > > > > site
> > > > > > > de
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> relacionamentos com até 6,000 fotos!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > Conheça o Windows Live Spaces, a rede de
> relacionamentos
> > > do
> > > > > > > Messenger!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br/_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > Cansado de espaço para só 50 fotos? Conheça o Spaces, o
> > > site de
> > > > > > > > > > > relacionamentos com até 6,000 fotos!
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Confira vídeos com notícias do NY Times, gols direto do
> Lance,
> > > > > > > videocassetadas e muito mais no MSN Video!
> > > > > > > > > http://video.msn.com/?mkt=pt-br
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Cansado de espaço para só 50 fotos? Conheça o Spaces, o site
> de
> > > > > > > relacionamentos com até 6,000 fotos!
> > > > > > > > http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Instale a Barra de Ferramentas com Desktop Search e ganhe
> EMOTICONS
> > > > > para o
> > > > > > > Messenger! É GRÁTIS!
> > > > > > > http://www.msn.com.br/emoticonpack
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Cansado de espaço para só 50 fotos? Conheça o Spaces, o site de
> > > > > relacionamentos com até 6,000 fotos!
> > > > > http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Cansado de espaço para só 50 fotos? Conheça o Spaces, o site de
> > > relacionamentos com até 6,000 fotos!
> > > http://www.amigosdomessenger.com.br
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Instale a Barra de Ferramentas com Desktop Search e ganhe EMOTICONS para o
> Messenger! É GRÁTIS!
> http://www.msn.com.br/emoticonpack
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>

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Received on Sun Nov 9 17:42:16 2008