RE: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman Luria)

Mike, Bella,
Thank you again. Excuse me, I didn't read (if I read I don't remember) about that "oral analysis";
There was any pupil or colleague of A.R.Luria that have compiled these lessons? Any historian
that have rescue some reference and put them available? The explicit quotation of the "internal
image of the disease" would be important to this concept in A.R. Luria or can be sufficient search
for subtextual or intertextual conceptual relations?
Thank you.
Achilles.


> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:50:35 -0700
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman Luria)
> CC: c.levitin@l-card.ru
>
> Hi Bella (with two LLs!- excuse my sloppy typing).
>
> My understanding is that RAL wanted ARL to become a Dr. and thought
> psychology a waste of time. ARL went for psychology, but, in part at least,
> through his association with Vygotsky, did some medical school work in
> parallel
> with their other work in the late 1920's-1930's. Then the terror descended
> and
> going to medical school was a tunnel to survival, a tunnel that opened up
> tragically (again) in WWII.
>
> The twists and turns, again in my limited understanding, are in the
> "Dialogue with the Autobiography of A.R. Luria." Perhaps Karl Yefimich has
> something to add or correct?
> mike
>
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:52 AM, bella kotik <bella.kotik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sure there was influence of Luria father on development of his son's
> > interest in psychology, physiology and medicine. ARL mentioned the inner
> > image of the illness in his oral neuropsychological analysis of cases (на
> > разборах больных). As the the influence on his theoretical approach I can
> > not see it with confidence. Mike, what is your opinion?
> > Bella
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Oh... It's wonderful, thank you very much.
> > > Do you think that "internal image of disease" from R.A.Luria can be
> > related
> > > to the later approach of A.R. Luria in his "Romantic Science" followed by
> > > Sacks (as he said in "A leg to stand on") , and expressed in Luria's
> > works,
> > > like "The mind of a mnemonist" and "The man with a shattered world"? Can
> > I
> > > try to combine these contributions in a same coherent theoretical
> > framework
> > > or many adjusts must be made? Sorry about my simple questions, but they
> > are
> > > important to me at this moment and I'm trying to learn and to
> > construct...
> > > Your contribution has been very important and elucidative. Sorry about my
> > > English too, my writing must sounds very rough, but I can understand you
> > > very well, and for this reason I write even so. Thank you for all.
> > > Большое спасибо.
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:54:39 +0200
> > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman
> > Luria)
> > > >
> > > > I think the cultural-historical approach may be relevant for valeology,
> > > but
> > > > it depends on the researcher. I'll ask a Russian friend for texts in
> > > > valeology
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, thank you,
> > > > >
> > > > > If you suggest something of the more important texts even in Russian,
> > I
> > > can
> > > > > try to provide
> > > > > a translation to Portuguese. Do you think that valeology can be
> > > > > epistemologicaly
> > > > > compatible with a historical-cultural approach?
> > > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:51:22 +0200
> > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease" (Roman
> > > Luria)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some people in Russia are using this term: "internal image of
> > health"
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > context of rather new trend of research- valeology, but I do not
> > know
> > > if
> > > > > > there is anything translated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Interesting, Bella,
> > > > > > > I already was preferring "imagem" in Portuguese too,
> > > > > > > despite the translation of Asmolov's "Vygostky today:
> > > > > > > on the verge of non-classical psychology" had wrote
> > > > > > > "internal picture of disease" (Asmolov, 1988, p. 52)...
> > > > > > > And about "internal image of health"? What do you
> > > > > > > indicate to us?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you, very much, for your attention and help.
> > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:54:11 +0200
> > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics [image] of disease"
> > (Roman
> > > > > Luria)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are right, Achilles, both image and picture are possible
> > > > > translations
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > "kartina", but I think image is more relevant;
> > > > > > > > As to dynamics- it depends of the context.
> > > > > > > > BKF
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bella,
> > > > > > > > > Тhank you very much... I will search for the book and papers
> > > > > quoting
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > "Vnutrennyaya kartyna bolezny"... Can we translate "kartyna"
> > as
> > > > > "image"
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > "picture" too?
> > > > > > > > > I liked "dynamics", because includes movement of this
> > > "kartyna"...
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > you think to be
> > > > > > > > > the best option? Thank you for all.
> > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:05:32 +0200
> > > > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics of disease" (Luria
> > > apud
> > > > > > > > > Zeignarnik)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > *Лурия P. А*. Внутренняя картина болезни и патогенные
> > > > > заболевания.
> > > > > > > М.,
> > > > > > > > > 1944.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I do not have any information about it's availiability. I
> > > made an
> > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > via
> > > > > > > > > > google.ru but could not find. May be in Moscow it would be
> > > > > possible
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > find,
> > > > > > > > > > but I am in Jerusalem now.
> > > > > > > > > > Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, Bella,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking that "R.A" was a typographic mistake...
> > > Mistake
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > mine.
> > > > > > > > > > > But, can you tell me the work quoted by Zeigarnik, and
> > say
> > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > about it's availability? And, about this reference:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > LURIA, A.R. Internal description of illness and
> > pathogenic
> > > > > > > > > diseases.Moscow,
> > > > > > > > > > > 1944.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It's realy from Alexander Romanovich? There is means to
> > > obtain
> > > > > it?
> > > > > > > Can
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > > > me, telling me the Russian title?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your patience and help.
> > > > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:56:11 +0200
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Internal dynamics of disease"
> > (Luria
> > > > > apud
> > > > > > > > > > > Zeignarnik)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Roman Albertovich Luria was the father of Alexander
> > > > > Romanovich
> > > > > > > Luria.
> > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > was R.A. Who R. A. Luria introduced the concept of
> > > "internal
> > > > > > > dynamics
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > disease," but it is often mistakenly cited (both in
> > > English
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > Russian)
> > > > > > > > > > > > as belonging to his famous son.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:28 AM, delari <
> > delari@uol.com.br
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings for all,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, can you give me a little help with a Luria's
> > > book?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bluma V. Zeigarnik quotes Luria's concept of
> > "internal
> > > > > dynamics
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > disease"
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "The well-known Soviet therapist R. A. Luriya
> > > introduced
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > concept of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "internal dynamics of disease," by which he means
> > "all
> > > that
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > patient experiences and feels, the entire aggregate
> > of
> > > his
> > > > > > > > > sensations,
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > only local sensations due to his illness but also his
> > > > > general
> > > > > > > > > feeling
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > himself, his self-observation, how he represents his
> > > > > illness to
> > > > > > > > > himself
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (Withrespect to its causes), all that which is linked
> > > with
> > > > > > > > > approaching
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > physician - that entire internal world of the
> > patient,
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > consists
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > very complex combinations of perceptions and
> > > sensations,
> > > > > > > emotions,
> > > > > > > > > > > affects,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > conflicts, mental feelings, and trauma." He indicated
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > behavior
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mental processes of the individual are changed at the
> > > very
> > > > > > > moment
> > > > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > > > > > learns about his illness."(ZEIGARNIK, 1972, P.133)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ZEIGARNIK, B. V. Experimental Abnormal psychology [In
> > > fact:
> > > > > > > > > "Vvedenie v
> > > > > > > > > > > > > patopsikhologiyu" = "Introduction to
> > Pathopsychology"].
> > > > > Chapter
> > > > > > > 6 -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Personality disturbances in the mentally ill. New
> > York,
> > > > > London:
> > > > > > > > > Plenum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Press. 1972. p. 109-136. [I attached a copy of the
> > > > > chapter]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > She don´t give the date of the quotation, there are 8
> > > > > titles by
> > > > > > > > > Luria
> > > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > her bibliography. And I believe that the quoted about
> > > > > "internal
> > > > > > > > > > > dynamics of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > disease" must be this:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > LURIA, A.R. Internal description of illness and
> > > pathogenic
> > > > > > > > > diseases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Moscow, 1944.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any means to legally obtain a payed or free
> > > copy
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > book,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > even most probably in Russian?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you help me?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, very much, for your attention and
> > patience.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > >
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >
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Received on Thu Oct 30 14:45:27 2008