Re: [xmca] More Problems With Chapter Two

  
> a) On p. 57, just after the first long Piaget quote,
> Minick's got "Rational or directed thinking is
> social." But Mecacci's got "La prima forma du
> pensiero e sociale". I interpret this to mean "The
> first form of thought is social", very different.

Vygotsky discusses the distinction between rational or directed thought AND undirected or autistic (sensu Bleuler, the teacher of Piaget), quotes from Piaget, and then he says:

Pervaya forma myshleniya sotsial'na. -- Literally: The first form of thinking is social.

I interpret this to mean:

The former form of thinking [i.e. rational or directed thinking] is social ---

which is not -- "The first form of thought is social", or "La prima forma du pensiero e sociale" (unless 'la prima' in this contexst can mean 'the former'--I guess it might: http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-italian/former ), very different indeed.

Then, in the following sentences Vygotsky discusses, in turn, autistic thought (see Minick's translation, p. 57).

So, Minick is absolutely right, is he not?

 
> b) On p. 58,  bottom of the page, Minick's got
> "Following K.D. Larson". But the ref in Piaget is
> clearly to Hans Larsson, a Swedish poet, who Piaget calls
> "M. Larsson", author of "La logique de la
> poesie". The Kozulin version of Hanfmann and Vakar has
> Hans Larsson. Who is K.D.Larson?
>  

This question should be addressed to the editors of the volume of the Russian edition, 1982 and even the one of 1956. At least one thing is cliear: none of them either had the book by Piaget or cared to check out the reference. In the edition of 1934 Vygotsky says "Following Larson, Piaget, etc."

> c) On p. 59, second Piaget quote. Minick's got
> "All the writers who have concerned themselves with the
> play, the testimony and the lives of children have realized
> this." Mecacci says that the Russian ed has
> mistranslated "mensonges" as "mysl". And
> Minick's got "lives" for "lies"!

Three points:
1. Indeed, Minick seems to have inserted the V into lies in the quotation from the 1928 translation of Piaget's Le jugement la raisonnement chez l'enfant: http://books.google.com/books?id=W6q3qAVVP5oC&pg=PA202&dq=%22Lustprinzip+is+prior . However, I personally would suspend judgement until I see the French original (which does not mean that I do not trust Mecacci, still...).

2. Note, Vygotsky referred to the Russian translation of Piaget's book of 1932, therefore, I would attribute the mistakes in rendering Piaget's 'mensonges' to the errors in this translation rather than to a "Russian ed" who "has mistranslated 'mensonges' as 'mysl'". Interestingly, in the 1994 version of the Russian translation of the Piaget's book that I have this paragraph remains exactly as it is in Vygotsky's quote. Yet another reason to check out Piaget's original.

3. Anyway, Vygotsky's quote is quite far from Piaget's phrasing, so I would not be surprised to find many more discrepencies between Piaget's text and Vygotsky's quotations. However, one should keep it in mind that Vygotsky himself knew the work of Piaget very well and had the first-hand knowledge of his works, reading the stuff obviously in the original.

 
> d) On p. 62, end of the second para,  Minick's got
> this: "It is of particular interest that biologically
> oriented theories in particular that of Bleuler who
> developed the theory of autistic thinking, have reached the
> same conclusion," i.e. that autistic thinking precedes
> the reality principle.

Exactly the opposite. I believe it is not Minick but L.S. Vygotsky who fairly clearly points out that (emphasis added):

Autistic thinking is NOT, however, the first stage in the mental development of either the human species or the child. It is NOT a primitive function, not the point of departure for the whole of development. Is is NOT the basic or initial form from which all others take their beginning. NOT EVEN for biological evolution or the biological analysis of infant behaviour does autisitc thinking warrant the status suggested by Freud and accepted by Piaget. [...]
It is of particular interest that biologically oriented theories, in particular that of Bleuler who developed the theory of autistic thinking, have reached this same conclusion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=u8UTfKFWb5UC&pg=PA62&dq=Autistic+thinking+is+NOT,+however,+the+first+stage+in+the+mental+development+of+either+the+human+species+or+the+child

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Received on Mon Sep 22 08:11 PDT 2008