RE: [xmca] RE: mental health

Michael,I must (re)read Vygotsky's texts that I have here, about schizophrenia.I find only 2 texts. "Thinking in Schizophrenia" (1931) (published in VygotskyReader) and "The psychology of schizophrenia" (1933) (published inSoviet Psychology, 1987, p.72-77)... I don't know yet about this problemof "normal" personality (leachnost)... Until now I was thinking in somethinglike Puzirei's interpretation: “It is important, as
it formulates its basic thought T. Mann, to know not
with what illness man (person) is sick, but - what man (person) is sick
with this disease.”Then, I wondered that person, and social personality was a more complextotality than the illness itself. That illness only can be understood in itsrelation with more complex entire dynamic-structural sistem of higher mentalfuntions, related to consciousness, sense, personality, and world view.If I am a schizophrenic person, maybe I can´t let to be schizophrenic, but to be schizophrenic is not all that I am as a person, socially constructed...I´m even a father, a son, a worker, a student, have my passions, feelings...I think that we can't be over-otimistic. But, being realistic, can we helpa schizophrenic/bipolar/etc person to be, even so, a healthful person,even not all the time? How much (and essentialy by what ways) social/semiotic relations can contribute in the genesis of functional/dysfunctional arrange of psychic systems of person who has such diseases? I don´t know...I had associated personality with sense (smisl) and world view (mirovozrenie). Then I supposed that to a person can to have a personality, necessarily HMF have to emerges. A "schizophrenic personality" would be, in my way to think, a historical-cultural formation, overall. This doesn't means forget the dialetic relations between neurofunctional substract of mental fuctions and the semiotic (extra-cortical) mediation divices, culturally provided. I´m confuse in my associations. I will try to think better. Thank you very much.Achilles,Umuarama, July 13, 2008.

> From: mglevykh@telus.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:25:57 -0700
>
> Achilles,
>
> Although being quite often over-optimistic, talking about personality,
> Vygotsky was convinced that we cannot develop "normal" leachnost in a
> post-schizophrenic person. Our goal is to facilitate development of a
> "schizophrenic" leachnost - whatever it might mean.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 9:43 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I understand, but I ask you: it can allow space for higher mental funcitons
> by stoping biochemical elementary process that colapses intire system of
> psychic funtions, but it can't strictly generate meaninful/semantic process
> that
> constitute consciousness ideological organization, personality structure and
> world view. Can it? Maybe the answer seems to be obvious... But, if I take
> Lithium, Clorpromazina and Sertralina, my sleep and anxiety turns more
> controlable, and my mood more euthimic, and so on, then it allow space
> for any kind of productive imagination and thinking, that can actually
> occurs
> or not... but my entire thinking system of higher mental funtions seems to
> be
> organized by other semantic process too, socially, culturally generated -
> Then I agree that we need a "a balance between attending to the
> neuroatypical
> issues (autism, bipolar disorder, etc.) and attending to what's more
> strictly
> on the outside (other people's attitudes, the social arrangement of material
>
> surroundings that channel thinking about difference--see, e.g.,
> accommodations for
> physically handicapped people)." Even so, my curiosity is too about the
> possibility of generate social-cultural semiotic resources to promote
> semantic
> process that (re)organizes intire personality, consciousness,
> dinamic-structural
> sistems, in order to people's (maybe) better using of highter mental
> functions
> that medications can allow space for. Five years of psychoanalisys was not
> very productive to me, for instance, I wonder if could be any third way
> beyond
> mentalistic and naturalistic aproachs in psychoterapy as well as in general
> psychology and in educational psychology researchs and social practices.
> But, I'm just thinking by associations, I have to study very much - to read,
> to
>
> maintain atentional focus, motivation, an so on. Valsiner and Van der Veer's
>
> claim, that Vygotsky in practice worked more in clinical setting, makes me
> wonder: how he actually did this? Why we don't have much information about
> this practice?
> ...
> Thank you very much.
> Achilles,
> Umuarama, July 13, 2008.
>
> > From: smago@uga.edu
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:43:35 -0400
> >
> > My sense is that medications can allow space for higher mental functions,
> > which might otherwise be choked off by panic attacks and other responses.
> >
> > Peter Smagorinsky
> > The University of Georgia
> > 125 Aderhold Hall
> > Athens, GA 30602
> > smago@uga.edu/phone:706-542-4507
> > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior
> > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 8:05 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health
> >
> >
> > Peter, thank you, very much.
> >
> > I strongly agree with your position, not only agree but
> > I'm learning a lot with you. I wonder that medication can not
> > directlly affect highter mental funtions, not in semantic/
> > ideologic organization of conciousness. I agree with
> > Volochinov/Bakhtin's postition (in his wor "Freudism")
> > that human conflicts are ideological/not strictly biological
> > in its constitution...
> > Maybe I was remarking the need to socially overcome "sad
> > passions", more than the really essential need to socially
> > enpower "glad passions"... (in spnozian terms). There is
> > no the first process without the second one. I know.
> > I only don´t know how yet. Not exactly. I belive that
> > many people alread have this know-how. I wish to learn...
> > I can try. Now I have important references here, then
> > I must organize myself. =)
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Oh. Please. I couldn't access the file... When I try, apears
> > this message:
> > You don't have permission to access
> > /hold5yr/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd/cook_leslie_s_200408_phd.pdf on this
> > server
> > What can I do?
> >
> > Best, Achilles
> > Umuarama, July, 12 2008.
> >
> > > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE: [xmca] RE:
> > mental health> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:12:53 -0400> > Achilles, again I
> > speak largely from experience here. I think that there's a> balance
> between
> > attending to the neuroatypical issues (autism, bipolar> disorder, etc.)
> and
> > attending to what's more strictly on the outside (other> people's
> attitudes,
> > the social arrangement of material surroundings that> channel thinking
> about
> > difference--see, e.g., accommodations for physically> handicapped people).
> >
> > > What we argue in the book excerpt, and what Leslie argues, is that it's>
> > vitally important to create mediational contexts that both contribute to
> > new> settings (when there are wheelchair ramps, being wheelchair-bound
> > appears to> all to be less of a handicap) and new ways for people to think
> > about> themselves; or as some research suggests (see Damasio in our review
> > below),> new ways for the brain to encode perceptions.> > This is not to
> say
> > that some conditions do not require additional attention.> I take a
> > medication for anxiety, and many people I know take antipsychotics,>
> > depression medications, and so on. Undoubtedly there's some
> > overprescription> of such meds, but many of us are glad to have the
> option.>
> > > One thing seems certain: We need more research in this area, so I
> > strongly> encourage you to extend your investigation! Best,Peter> > > >
> > -----Original Message-----> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On> Behalf Of Achilles Delari Junior>
> > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 7:36 PM> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity>
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] RE: mental health> > > Thank you, very much Peter...>
> >
> > "Cook (2004) argues that relying simply on medication and counseling > is
> > inadequate; that a broader environmental change that enables an >
> > understanding and tolerance of difference, and gives young people > tools
> > for managing their difference, is essential to helping young people >
> > construct positive lives for themselves and in turn contribute to a more >
> > humane society."> > It's a beautiful and deep contribution. I really agree
> > with this> orientation. > But, let me ask you: don’t you think that could
> > exist a subtle distinction > between (a) “tolerance of difference related
> to
> > inclusive education” and > (b) “(self)tolerance of mental pain”? I think
> > about my own experience: > there are several moments in which I don't only
> > accept my different > (dysfunctional) process, but desire overcome/master
> > it... There are four > hyperbolic semiotic process that I recognize (and
> > struggle with) in BAD > (bipolar affective disorder):
> > {paranoia<->megalomania} (mania) X > (depression) {self-moralist<->suicide
> > ideation}. And I know that if social > others learn to comprehend and
> accept
> > these different semiotic ways of> means world and my own experience,
> > changing "social situation" by> inter-mental mediation, my own personal
> > sense for this process can be > transformed. But, even so, a paranoid
> > delirium not always can be only > accepted. If we could understand
> > cultural-historical genetical roots of > mental pain, can we do something
> to
> > not only accept it, but even > overcome/replace its dysfunctional
> > social/personal consequences?> Here, ariseesthe problem of
> “psykhotekhnika”
> > again, an approach that > not only explains psychic process as function of
> > social relations, but> socially > (and deliberately) constructs it too… >
> >
> > Personally talking, seems to be not too easy to me to engage myself> in
> > social relations that could actually produce important functional > (and
> > structural-dynamical) changes in my life - even more, since I > haven’t
> > control about multiple social and biological determinations.> Things seems
> > turns better or worse more in a casual than a determinist > way. But, by
> > epistemological principles and with an emotional need to hope,> I know
> that
> > social formation of mind is open to co-construction/>
> > inter-constitution/co-existence (sobytie)… Along the years, Vygotsky’s>
> > claims > (to create new psychology and new means to make people’s life
> > better) > make me take this problem of psychology applied to mental health
> > as a kind> of personal and professional challenge to my own mental
> > (cognitive/> affective) > resources… (but sorry about my "ecogentric
> > language" here, righ now, i will> control me better in future)> > Oh,
> sure.
> > One more operational question. Let me ask: is this “dissertation > of
> Leslie
> > Cook” (“who looked at young women with depressive disorders > and the
> > mediational means they use to make sense of their lives”) > available in
> any
> > digital midia?> > Thank you very much, for this opportunity of
> > inter-constitution. I must > organize my reading tasks now, there are very
> > important contributions of all> > you here.> > Achilles> Umuarama, July,
> 11
> > 2008.> > From: smago@uga.edu> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: RE: [xmca]
> > RE:> mental health> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:24:52 -0400> > Achilles
> asks:
> > > Can> we really creat semiotical means to produce better mental health to
> > people?> Or this kind of a goal is a mistake like possible Vygotsky´s or
> > perhaps some> Vygotsky's followers' mistakes about 'social engeneering'?>
> >
> > I would say> YES to the first question. I'll take a shortcut and paste
> > something in below> from a book I've coauthored about The Discourse of
> > Character Education> (Erlbaum, 2005, with Joel Taxel). It draws on the
> > dissertation of Leslie> Cook, who looked at young women with depressive
> > disorders and the> mediational means they use to make sense of their
> lives.
> > My apologies for> the length of the following excerpt.> > > Mental Health
> > and Character> Education> We have briefly expressed our concern that the
> > issue of mental> health is virtually absent from discussions about
> character
> > education. Yet> many students who come to school with a mental health
> > problems are treated> as discipline problems of the sort measured as
> indexes
> > of low character in> the proposals we have studied. We believe that it is
> > important for any> character education initiative to recognize and account
> > for mental health in> its conception of good character, both for those
> with
> > nonnormative makeups> and those with whom they interact.> Mental health is
> > the elephant in the> character education closet. The World Health
> > Organization (2001) reports> that about 7.5 million children in the U.
> > S.—12% of all children under> 18—have mental disorders, nearly half of
> which
> > lead to serious disability.> Jamison (1997) found that 20% of high school
> > students had seriously> considered committing suicide during the year
> prior
> > to his study, with most> having drawn up a suicide plan; suicide is the #3
> > cause of death of> teenagers between 15 and 19 years of age, often
> following
> > from a depressive> disorder. Yet most parents and teachers feel that
> mental
> > health issues are> poorly addressed in schools (Dowling & Pound, 1994;
> > Rappaport & Carolla,> 1999), many teachers have little understanding of
> how
> > to recognize or> respond to students with mental health problems (Madison,
> > 1996), and only> recently has mental health been identified as a reason to
> > develop an> Individual Education Plan (IEP) for students.> These
> widespread>
> > misunderstandings have resulted in many such students being regarded as>
> > troublesome or lacking character in schools. Yet, as reporter Anne Imse>
> > (1999) wrote following the Columbine school shooting tragedy, > Even
> teens>
> > as dangerously troubled as Eric Harris stand a good chance of slipping>
> > through the cracks in Jefferson County and across Colorado, failing to
> get>
> > badly needed mental health care. There are serious roadblocks to getting>
> > treatment for sick kids [including]> • State prohibitions against law>
> > enforcement agencies telling schools about a problem kid unless there's a>
> > conviction; > • Schools worrying about being saddled with psychiatric
> bills>
> > if they recommend treatment, or even being sued; > • Not enough money>
> > earmarked for counselors and counseling for the state's youth. > So, even>
> > though Jefferson County school officials have become more sensitive to
> > kids'> mental states . . . they remain hamstrung about arranging
> treatment.
> > "We> have no place to go with them," said Clark Bencomo, a counselor at
> > Green> Mountain High School. "All we can do is suspend or expel." "We are>
> > oftentimes reduced to putting a kid in a place where they're safe, but
> it's>
> > not the right program," added Kay Cessna, intervention services director
> > for> Jefferson County schools. "There are not enough places." [One parent
> of
> > a> child with disabilities complained], "They don't have the time, the>
> > manpower, and they don't get it.">
> > (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0516ment2.shtml) > Cook
> > (2004)> finds this problem occurring in other states as well, reporting
> > that> students with mental health problems are often put in special
> > education> programs or disciplined when they act out, either as a
> > consequence of their> makeup (e.g., a child with Tourette’s syndrome’s
> > involuntary profanity) or> in response to the taunting they face from
> their
> > peers.> Yet a mental health> professional would surely argue that the
> > problem is not a lack of character> and the solution is not to punish
> > students with mental health problems.> Rather, a broader understanding of
> > mental health among students and> faculty—the sort of attention to climate
> > we found in the states from the> Upper Midwest—would contribute to a more
> > sympathetic and less punitive> environment for such students in school.
> > Indeed, Damasio (1994) argues in> his somatic-marker theory against the
> > classic Cartesian mind/body binary,> instead positing that brain and body
> > are integrally related not just to one> another but to the environment. A
> > change in the environment, he finds, may> contribute to changes in how a
> > person processes new information (cf. Luria,> 1979; Pert, 1997); that is,
> in
> > response to developments in the surroundings,> the brain will encode
> > perceptions in new kinds of ways. > Conceivably, then,> changes in school
> > climate can contribute to the emotional well-being of> students whose
> mental
> > makeup falls outside the normal range. The therapy for> such students is
> > still widely debated. While medication and counseling have> benefited many
> > with nonnormative makeups in their relationships with others,> the medical
> > model has been criticized because it assumes that a normative> mental
> state
> > is best for all. This criticism frequently comes up in debates> about
> > whether medications for Attention Deficit Disorder are prescribed too>
> often
> > for any students who have difficulty focusing in school. Some argue> that
> > prescribing such medications is designed more to increase the comfort>
> > levels of those around such students than to help those students>
> > themselves.> The jury is still out concerning the question of whether
> > people> with such diagnoses are sick and in need of medicine. Cook (2004)
> > argues> that relying simply on medication and counseling is inadequate;
> that
> > a> broader environmental change that enables an understanding and
> tolerance
> > of> difference, and gives young people tools for managing their
> difference,
> > is> essential to helping young people construct positive lives for
> > themselves> and in turn contribute to a more humane society. Taking a
> > punitive approach> to difference, she argues, is regressive and only makes
> > life more fragile> for those characterized as different and more
> emotionally
> > and cognitively> unhealthy for those who surround them.> >>
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Received on Sun Jul 13 19:45 PDT 2008