Re: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric

From: Mike Cole <lchcmike who-is-at>
Date: Sat Nov 24 2007 - 14:13:47 PST

Hi adam
You stimulated me to check out wikipedia on wenger identity. Worth checking
out at

I am guessing we need to distinguish lave/wenger from wenger at this point.
So far as I know,
Jean's focus on a social ontology would make her loath to make statements
about the subjective
side of identity (yes, it is something done to us, but yes it is something
we do in transacting the world).
But Etienne does not seem to shy away from psychologizing.

Am I mis=remembering here?

On Nov 24, 2007 1:52 PM, Adam Mendelson <> wrote:

> I think identity is fairly central to Lave & Wenger's legitimate
> peripheral
> participation. I interpret their's as a model in which learning is a
> process
> of becoming a type of person (i.e. a full member in a particular
> community).
> Their work shares many of the same premises as language socialization
> which
> posits not only that we learn language through being socialized into
> particular speech communities, but also that we are socialized to the
> ideologies of those communities through language.
> Wenger's later "communities of practice" presents a much fuller discussion
> of identity than was initially developed by L&W. For one, he accounts for
> membership in multiple communities. Similarly, Eva Lam explores the impact
> on identity of being simultaneously socialized into multiple speech
> communities.
> Adam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [] On
> Behalf Of
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 12:21 PM
> To:; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [xmca] Boris assists Mike assists Eric
> Wow, Boris & Mike:
> That is truely enlightening. I appreciate the formation of the ideal that
> has evolved from this discourse. I was floundering at first Mike,
> regarding
> your comment on superego, but having read and reread the post from Boris I
> now concur that personality research is not for the collective but rather
> for the understanding of cultural influences upon development.
> Mike, in your opinion does Lave and Wagner's research on legitimate
> peripheral participation assist in the research pertaining to identity?
> Thank you Andy for beginning this fabulous thread
> grateful for the discourse,
> not dead yet,
> eric
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <>
> cc: Boris Meshcheryakov <>
> bcc:
> Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> "Mike Cole" <>
> Sent by:
> 11/23/2007 08:50 AM PST
> Please respond to mcole <font size=-1></font>
> In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> Mescheryakov
> re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read in the
> Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere was kind enough to look up relevant
> passages from LSV. I probably have not done the translation justice, but
> most all of this exists in English and others more knowledgeable of
> Russian
> can straighten things out.
> It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced to
> either or....... again.
> mike
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Boris Meshcheryakov <>
> Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> To: Mike Cole <>
> Здравствуй, Mike.
> По-видимому, правы те, кто считает, что проблема идентичности,
> идентификации, самоопределения (самодетерминации) не были самостоятельным
> предметом размышлений и исследований Выготского. Могу лишь предложить
> некоторые его высказывания о развитии личности и самосознании (эту связь
> Выготский четко описывал):
> Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> identification,
> self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
> investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his
> statements
> on the development of personality and self consciousness (this connection
> Vygotsky clearly did describe)
> ?...отличие ребенка от подростка может быть лучше всего выражено
> положением
> Гегеля, который различал вещи в себе и вещи для себя. Он говорил, что все
> вещи суть сначала в себе, но на этом дело не останавливается и в процессе
> развития вещь превращается в вещь для себя. Так, говорил он, человек в
> себе
> есть ребенок, задача которого состоит не в том, чтобы оставаться в этом
> абстрактном и неразвитом "в себе", а в том, чтобы стать также и для себя
> тем, чем он пока есть лишь в себе, именно стать свободным и разумным
> существом. Вот это превращение ребенка из человека в себе в подростка ?
> человека для себя ? и составляет главное содержание всего кризиса
> переходного возраста. Это есть эпоха созревания личности и
> мировоззрения...?
> (Педология подростка, Собр. соч., т. 4, с. 199).
> "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things for
> oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
> matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development the
> thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
> himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
> undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for himself
> in
> a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a
> free
> and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into an adult
> (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this transitional
> age.
> It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view (Pedology
> of
> the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
> "Личность становится для себя тем, что она есть в себе, через то, что она
> предъявляет для других. Это и есть процесс становления личности" (История
> развития ВПФ, Собр. соч., т. 3, с. 144). (A) Personality becomes for
> itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it
> manifests
> through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)
> Очень важное добавление из "Истории развития ВПФ": "The following addition
> from same work is very important:
> ?Дж. Болдуин справедливо отметил, что понятие о "я" развивается у ребенка
> из
> понятия о других. Понятие ?личность? есть, т.о., социальное, отраженное
> понятие, строящееся на основе того, что ребенок применяет по отношению к
> самому себе те приемы приспособления, которые он применяет по отношению к
> другим. Вот почему можно сказать, что личность есть социальное в нас? (т.
> 3, с. 324/ жирн. шрифт мой ? Б.М.).
> James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a child
> from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the social,
> reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the child uses
> in
> relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
> relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that personality
> is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
> Из "Психологического словаря" Варшавы и Выготского (1931) From Varshava
> and
> Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
> "Идентификация (Фрейд) - отождествление, уподобление себя другой личности,
> приписывание себе признаков определенного человека. Идентификация играет
> огромную роль в сновидениях, в творчестве, в мечтах. Психологический смысл
> И. сводится к расширению круга переживаний, к обогащению внутреннего
> опыта".
> Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> another
> personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a specific
> person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
> creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to the
> widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the enrichment
> of
> innner life.
> "Личность - термин, означающий единство и индивидуальность всех жизненных
> и
> психологических проявлений человека; человек, сознающий сам себя как
> определенное индивидуальное единство и тождество во всех процессах
> изменения, происходящих в организме и психике, есть личность. Болезнь Л.
> выражается в распаде этого единства"
> Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> everyday
> life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man) accepting
> himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of
> change
> that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
> Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.
> И еще: В "Психологии искусства" в главе о "Гамлете" Выготский акцентирует
> понятие "второго рождения" . В работах А.Н. Леонтьева тоже встречается
> этот
> термин в связи с развитием самосознания в подростковом возрасте. And
> also:
> In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates the
> concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also encounters
> this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness during
> adolescence.
> --
> С уважением,
> Б.М.
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