Re: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?

Fascinating, Paul. LSV was referring to James Mark Baldwin, the circular
reaction guy who inspired Piaget among many others.
The way the more recently deceased J. Baldwin makes the point of society's
role in the creation of what currently is discussed as identity is indeed
interesting.
mike

On Nov 23, 2007 11:31 AM, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The citation of James Baldwin, a black homosexual, provides a limit case
> of society's imposition of "identity". Things are clearer on the
> boundaries.
>
> An earlier post proposed the "identity" is a post-modern occidental
> preoccupation but this mistakes language and meta-language. Nobody ever
> talked about "oxygen" before Priestley isolated it while looking for
> de-phlogistinated air.
>
> Lacking in identity? Let's see, are you an " atheist, baptist, hindu, or
> jew, a buddhist, a catholic, or jain"? Do you cringe, grow enraged, or feel
> exhalted upon hearing the "Star Spangled Banner" or the "International"?
>
> Paul
>
> *Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> Mescheryakov
> re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read in the
> Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere
> was kind enough to look up relevant passages from LSV. I probably have not
> done the translation justice, but most all of this exists in English and
> others more knowledgeable of Russian
> can straighten things out.
>
> It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced to
> either or....... again.
> mike
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Boris Meshcheryakov < borlogic@orexovo.net>
> Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> To: Mike Cole
>
>
> Ð—Ð´Ñ€Ð°Ð²Ñ Ñ‚Ð²ÑƒÐ¹, Mike.
> По-видимому, правы те, кто Ñ Ñ‡Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°ÐµÑ‚, что
> проблема Ð¸Ð´ÐµÐ½Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸,
> идентификации, Ñ Ð°Ð¼Ð¾Ð¾Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐ´ÐµÐ»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ (Ñ
> амодетерминации) не были Ñ Ð°Ð¼Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÐµÐ»ÑŒÐ½Ñ‹Ð¼
> предметом размышлений и Ð¸Ñ Ñ Ð»ÐµÐ´Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ð¹
> Ð'Ñ‹Ð³Ð¾Ñ‚Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð¾. Могу лишь предложить
> некоторые его Ð²Ñ‹Ñ ÐºÐ°Ð·Ñ‹Ð²Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ð¾ развитии
> Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸ и Ñ Ð°Ð¼Ð¾Ñ Ð¾Ð·Ð½Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ð¸ (Ñ Ñ‚Ñƒ Ñ Ð²Ñ Ð·ÑŒ
> Ð'Ñ‹Ð³Ð¾Ñ‚Ñ ÐºÐ¸Ð¹ четко Ð¾Ð¿Ð¸Ñ Ñ‹Ð²Ð°Ð»):
>
> Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> identification,
> self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
> investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his
> statements
> on the development of personality and self consciousness (this connection
> Vygotsky clearly did describe)
>
>
> «...отличие ребенка от Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÐºÐ° может
> быть лучше Ð²Ñ ÐµÐ³Ð¾ выражено положением
> Ð"ÐµÐ³ÐµÐ»Ñ , который различал вещи в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ и
> вещи Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ . Он говорил, что Ð²Ñ Ðµ
> вещи Ñ ÑƒÑ‚ÑŒ Ñ Ð½Ð°Ñ‡Ð°Ð»Ð° в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ, но на Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ð¼ дело
> не Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð°Ð½Ð°Ð²Ð»Ð¸Ð²Ð°ÐµÑ‚Ñ Ñ Ð¸ в Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ñ†ÐµÑ Ñ Ðµ
> Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð²Ð¸Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ Ð²ÐµÑ‰ÑŒ Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐ²Ñ€Ð°Ñ‰Ð°ÐµÑ‚Ñ Ñ Ð² вещь Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ
> . Так, говорил он, человек в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ
> ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ ребенок, задача которого Ñ Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ð¸Ñ‚ не
> в том, чтобы Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð°Ð²Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒÑ Ñ Ð² Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ð¼
> Ð°Ð±Ñ Ñ‚Ñ€Ð°ÐºÑ‚Ð½Ð¾Ð¼ и неразвитом "в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ", а в
> том, чтобы Ñ Ñ‚Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒ также и Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ
> тем, чем он пока ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ лишь в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ, именно Ñ
> тать Ñ Ð²Ð¾Ð±Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ñ‹Ð¼ и разумным
> Ñ ÑƒÑ‰ÐµÑ Ñ‚Ð²Ð¾Ð¼. Ð'от Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾ превращение ребенка
> из человека в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ в Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÐºÐ° â€"
> человека Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ â€" и Ñ Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð°Ð²Ð»Ñ ÐµÑ‚ главное
> Ñ Ð¾Ð´ÐµÑ€Ð¶Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ðµ Ð²Ñ ÐµÐ³Ð¾ ÐºÑ€Ð¸Ð·Ð¸Ñ Ð°
> переходного Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ñ€Ð°Ñ Ñ‚Ð°. Это ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ñ…Ð° Ñ
> Ð¾Ð·Ñ€ÐµÐ²Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸ и Ð¼Ð¸Ñ€Ð¾Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ð·Ñ€ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ...»
> (ÐŸÐµÐ´Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð³Ð¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÐºÐ°, Собр. Ñ Ð¾Ñ‡., Ñ‚. 4, Ñ . 199).
>
> "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things for
> oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
> matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development the
> thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
> himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
> undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for himself
> in
> a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a
> free
> and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into an adult
> (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this transitional
> age.
> It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view (Pedology
> of
> the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
>
> "Ð›Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÑŒ Ñ Ñ‚Ð°Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð¸Ñ‚Ñ Ñ Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ Ñ‚ÐµÐ¼, что она
> ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ в Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ, через то, что она
> Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐ´ÑŠÑ Ð²Ð»Ñ ÐµÑ‚ Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¸Ñ…. Это и ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ процеÑ
> Ñ Ñ Ñ‚Ð°Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸" (Ð˜Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ñ€Ð¸Ñ
> Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð²Ð¸Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ Ð'ПФ, Собр. Ñ Ð¾Ñ‡., Ñ‚. 3, Ñ . 144). (A)
> Personality becomes for
> itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it manifests
> through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)
>
> Очень важное добавление из "Ð˜Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ñ€Ð¸Ð¸
> Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð²Ð¸Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ Ð'ПФ": "The following addition
> from same work is very important:
>
> «Ð"ж. Ð'олдуин Ñ Ð¿Ñ€Ð°Ð²ÐµÐ´Ð»Ð¸Ð²Ð¾ отметил, что
> Ð¿Ð¾Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸Ðµ о "Ñ " Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð²Ð¸Ð²Ð°ÐµÑ‚Ñ Ñ Ñƒ ребенка из
> Ð¿Ð¾Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ Ð¾ других. ÐŸÐ¾Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸Ðµ Â«Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÑŒÂ» еÑ
> Ñ‚ÑŒ, Ñ‚.о., Ñ Ð¾Ñ†Ð¸Ð°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð¾Ðµ, отраженное
> Ð¿Ð¾Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸Ðµ, Ñ Ñ‚Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ñ‰ÐµÐµÑ Ñ Ð½Ð° Ð¾Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ðµ того, что
> ребенок Ð¿Ñ€Ð¸Ð¼ÐµÐ½Ñ ÐµÑ‚ по отношению к
> Ñ Ð°Ð¼Ð¾Ð¼Ñƒ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ те приемы Ð¿Ñ€Ð¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ñ Ð¾Ð±Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ,
> которые он Ð¿Ñ€Ð¸Ð¼ÐµÐ½Ñ ÐµÑ‚ по отношению к
> другим. Ð'от почему можно Ñ ÐºÐ°Ð·Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒ, что
> Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÑŒ ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ Ñ Ð¾Ñ†Ð¸Ð°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð¾Ðµ в Ð½Ð°Ñ Â» (Ñ‚.
> 3, Ñ . 324/ жирн. шрифт мой â€" Ð'.Ðœ.).
>
> James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a child
> from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the social,
> reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the child uses
> in
> relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
> relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that personality
> is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
>
>
>
> Из "ÐŸÑ Ð¸Ñ…Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð³Ð¸Ñ‡ÐµÑ ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð¾ Ñ Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ€Ñ " Ð'аршавы и
> Ð'Ñ‹Ð³Ð¾Ñ‚Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð¾ (1931) From Varshava and
> Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
>
> "Ð˜Ð´ÐµÐ½Ñ‚Ð¸Ñ„Ð¸ÐºÐ°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ (Фрейд) - Ð¾Ñ‚Ð¾Ð¶Ð´ÐµÑ Ñ‚Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ðµ,
> уподобление Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¾Ð¹ Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸,
> Ð¿Ñ€Ð¸Ð¿Ð¸Ñ Ñ‹Ð²Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ðµ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ðµ признаков
> определенного человека. ИдентификациÑ
> играет
> огромную роль в Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð¸Ð´ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ñ…, в творчеÑ
> тве, в мечтах. ÐŸÑ Ð¸Ñ…Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð³Ð¸Ñ‡ÐµÑ ÐºÐ¸Ð¹ Ñ Ð¼Ñ‹Ñ Ð»
> И. Ñ Ð²Ð¾Ð´Ð¸Ñ‚Ñ Ñ Ðº Ñ€Ð°Ñ ÑˆÐ¸Ñ€ÐµÐ½Ð¸ÑŽ круга
> переживаний, к обогащению внутреннего
> опыта".
>
> Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> another
> personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a specific
> person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
> creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to the
> widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the enrichment
> of
> innner life.
>
> "Ð›Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÑŒ - термин, означающий ÐµÐ´Ð¸Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð²Ð¾ и
> Ð¸Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ð²Ð¸Ð´ÑƒÐ°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÑŒ Ð²Ñ ÐµÑ… жизненных и
> Ð¿Ñ Ð¸Ñ…Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð³Ð¸Ñ‡ÐµÑ ÐºÐ¸Ñ… Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ð¹ человека;
> человек, Ñ Ð¾Ð·Ð½Ð°ÑŽÑ‰Ð¸Ð¹ Ñ Ð°Ð¼ Ñ ÐµÐ±Ñ ÐºÐ°Ðº
> определенное индивидуальное ÐµÐ´Ð¸Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð²Ð¾ и
> Ñ‚Ð¾Ð¶Ð´ÐµÑ Ñ‚Ð²Ð¾ во Ð²Ñ ÐµÑ… Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ñ†ÐµÑ Ñ Ð°Ñ…
> Ð¸Ð·Ð¼ÐµÐ½ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ , Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ð¸Ñ Ñ…Ð¾Ð´Ñ Ñ‰Ð¸Ñ… в организме и пÑ
> ихике, ÐµÑ Ñ‚ÑŒ Ð»Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÑŒ. Ð'олезнь Л.
> Ð²Ñ‹Ñ€Ð°Ð¶Ð°ÐµÑ‚Ñ Ñ Ð² Ñ€Ð°Ñ Ð¿Ð°Ð´Ðµ Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ ÐµÐ´Ð¸Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð²Ð°"
>
> Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> everyday
> life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man) accepting
> himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of
> change
> that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
> Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.
>
> И еще: Ð' "ÐŸÑ Ð¸Ñ…Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð³Ð¸Ð¸ Ð¸Ñ ÐºÑƒÑ Ñ Ñ‚Ð²Ð°" в главе о
> "Ð"амлете" Ð'Ñ‹Ð³Ð¾Ñ‚Ñ ÐºÐ¸Ð¹ акцентирует
> Ð¿Ð¾Ð½Ñ Ñ‚Ð¸Ðµ "второго Ñ€Ð¾Ð¶Ð´ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ " . Ð' работах Ð .Ð
> . Леонтьева тоже Ð²Ñ Ñ‚Ñ€ÐµÑ‡Ð°ÐµÑ‚Ñ Ñ Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾Ñ‚
> термин в Ñ Ð²Ñ Ð·Ð¸ Ñ Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð²Ð¸Ñ‚Ð¸ÐµÐ¼ Ñ Ð°Ð¼Ð¾Ñ Ð¾Ð·Ð½Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ð²
> Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ñ€Ð¾Ñ Ñ‚ÐºÐ¾Ð²Ð¾Ð¼ Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ñ€Ð°Ñ Ñ‚Ðµ. And also:
> In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates the
> concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also encounters
> this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness during
> adolescence.
>
>
> --
>
> С уважением,
>
> Ð'.Ðœ. mailto:borlogic@orexovo.net
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Received on Fri Nov 23 11:52 PST 2007