Re: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?

From: Mike Cole <lchcmike who-is-at>
Date: Fri Nov 23 2007 - 11:50:53 PST

Fascinating, Paul. LSV was referring to James Mark Baldwin, the circular
reaction guy who inspired Piaget among many others.
The way the more recently deceased J. Baldwin makes the point of society's
role in the creation of what currently is discussed as identity is indeed

On Nov 23, 2007 11:31 AM, Paul Dillon <> wrote:

> The citation of James Baldwin, a black homosexual, provides a limit case
> of society's imposition of "identity". Things are clearer on the
> boundaries.
> An earlier post proposed the "identity" is a post-modern occidental
> preoccupation but this mistakes language and meta-language. Nobody ever
> talked about "oxygen" before Priestley isolated it while looking for
> de-phlogistinated air.
> Lacking in identity? Let's see, are you an " atheist, baptist, hindu, or
> jew, a buddhist, a catholic, or jain"? Do you cringe, grow enraged, or feel
> exhalted upon hearing the "Star Spangled Banner" or the "International"?
> Paul
> *Mike Cole <>* wrote:
> In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> Mescheryakov
> re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read in the
> Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere
> was kind enough to look up relevant passages from LSV. I probably have not
> done the translation justice, but most all of this exists in English and
> others more knowledgeable of Russian
> can straighten things out.
> It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced to
> either or....... again.
> mike
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Boris Meshcheryakov <>
> Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> To: Mike Cole
> Здрав твуй, Mike.
> По-видимому, правы те, кто читает, что
> проблема идентично ти,
> идентификации, амоопределени (
> амодетерминации) не были амо то тельным
> предметом размышлений и и ледований
> 'ыгот кого. Могу лишь предложить
> некоторые его вы казывани о развитии
> лично ти и амо ознании ( ту в зь
> 'ыгот кий четко опи ывал):
> Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> identification,
> self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
> investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his
> statements
> on the development of personality and self consciousness (this connection
> Vygotsky clearly did describe)
> «...отличие ребенка от подро тка может
> быть лучше в его выражено положением
> "егел , который различал вещи в ебе и
> вещи дл еб . Он говорил, что в е
> вещи уть начала в ебе, но на том дело
> не о танавливает и в проце е
> развити вещь превращает в вещь дл еб
> . Так, говорил он, человек в ебе
> е ть ребенок, задача которого о тоит не
> в том, чтобы о тавать в том
> аб трактном и неразвитом "в ебе", а в
> том, чтобы тать также и дл еб
> тем, чем он пока е ть лишь в ебе, именно
> тать вободным и разумным
> уще твом. 'от то превращение ребенка
> из человека в ебе в подро тка "
> человека дл еб " и о тавл ет главное
> одержание в его кризи а
> переходного возра та. Это е ть поха
> озревани лично ти и мировоззрени ...»
> (Педологи подро тка, Собр. оч., т. 4, . 199).
> "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things for
> oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
> matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development the
> thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
> himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
> undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for himself
> in
> a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a
> free
> and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into an adult
> (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this transitional
> age.
> It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view (Pedology
> of
> the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
> "Лично ть тановит дл еб тем, что она
> е ть в ебе, через то, что она
> предъ вл ет дл других. Это и е ть проце
> тановлени лично ти" (И тори
> развити 'ПФ, Собр. оч., т. 3, . 144). (A)
> Personality becomes for
> itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it manifests
> through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)
> Очень важное добавление из "И тории
> развити 'ПФ": "The following addition
> from same work is very important:
> «"ж. 'олдуин праведливо отметил, что
> пон тие о " " развивает у ребенка из
> пон ти о других. Пон тие «лично ть» е
> ть, т.о., оциальное, отраженное
> пон тие, тро щее на о нове того, что
> ребенок примен ет по отношению к
> амому ебе те приемы при по облени ,
> которые он примен ет по отношению к
> другим. 'от почему можно казать, что
> лично ть е ть оциальное в на » (т.
> 3, . 324/ жирн. шрифт мой " '.М.).
> James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a child
> from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the social,
> reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the child uses
> in
> relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
> relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that personality
> is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
> Из "П ихологиче кого ловар " 'аршавы и
> 'ыгот кого (1931) From Varshava and
> Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
> "Идентификаци (Фрейд) - отожде твление,
> уподобление еб другой лично ти,
> припи ывание ебе признаков
> определенного человека. Идентификаци
> играет
> огромную роль в новидени х, в творче
> тве, в мечтах. П ихологиче кий мы л
> И. водит к ра ширению круга
> переживаний, к обогащению внутреннего
> опыта".
> Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> another
> personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a specific
> person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
> creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to the
> widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the enrichment
> of
> innner life.
> "Лично ть - термин, означающий един тво и
> индивидуально ть в ех жизненных и
> п ихологиче ких про влений человека;
> человек, ознающий ам еб как
> определенное индивидуальное един тво и
> тожде тво во в ех проце ах
> изменени , прои ход щих в организме и п
> ихике, е ть лично ть. 'олезнь Л.
> выражает в ра паде того един тва"
> Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> everyday
> life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man) accepting
> himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of
> change
> that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
> Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.
> И еще: ' "П ихологии и ку тва" в главе о
> ""амлете" 'ыгот кий акцентирует
> пон тие "второго рождени " . ' работах .
> . Леонтьева тоже в тречает тот
> термин в в зи развитием амо ознани в
> подро тковом возра те. And also:
> In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates the
> concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also encounters
> this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness during
> adolescence.
> --
> С уважением,
> '.М.
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Received on Fri Nov 23 11:52 PST 2007

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