Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

It's available from the Lev Vygotsky Archive
(http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/)
at:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1925/consciousness.htm
~ Em

maria judith wrote:
> Would you please tell us how can we get it online?
> thank you
> maria
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Emily Duvall" <duvalleg@comcast.net>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology
>
>
>
>> In the 1925 "Consciousness as a problem in the psychology of behavior"
>> (available online by the way), Vygotsky says excluding consciousness
>> from the domain of scientific psychology preserves the dualism and
>> spiritualism of subjective psychology. In discussing the subjective, he
>> notes the following:.
>>
>> "In this view a subject's report is in no sense an act of
>> self-observation that interferes like getting a spoon of tar into the
>> barrel of honey of objective scientific investigation. No
>> self-observation at all. The subject is not at all in the situation of
>> an observer; he does not help an experimenter observe reflexes hidden
>> from his view. To the very end, and during the actual giving of an
>> account, a subject fully remains the object of an experiment; but
>> certain changes or transformations are introduced into the experiment
>> itself, through subsequent questioning; a new irritant is introduced (a
>> new questioning), and a new reflex enables us to assess the undetected
>> portions of the preceding one. The entire experiment passes through a
>> "double lens".
>> It is necessary to include such a passing of an experience through
>> the secondary reactions of consciousness in the methods of psychological
>> investigation. An individual's behavior and the establishment of new
>> conditional reactions are governed not only by disclosed, complete, and
>> fully detected reactions, but also by reactions, undisclosed in their
>> external part, invisible to the naked eye."
>> Later he states "the mechanism of social behavior and the mechanism
>> of consciousness are the same. Speech, on the one hand, is a system of
>> "reflexes for social contact", and, on the other, a system, most
>> eminently, of reflexes of consciousness, a system for reflecting other
>> systems.... The mechanism for knowing oneself (self-awareness) is the
>> same as the mechanism for knowing others....The individual aspect of
>> consciousness is constructed as derived and secondary, based on the
>> social and exactly according to its model."
>>
>> My understanding, then, of objective psychology is that it is not
>> based on a distinction of 'what I the scientist observe' about the
>> person/process as being more scientific than 'what you observe about
>> yourself', but that objective psychology includes as scientific 'what I
>> the scientist observe' and 'what you are aware of and can tell me '.
>> From Problems of Method:
>>
>> "We regard our method as important because it helps to objectify inner
>> psychological processes; stimulus-response methods are objective, [p.
>> 75] but they are limited to the study of external responses that are
>> usually in the subject's repertoire to begin with. We believe that our
>> approach to objectifying inner psychological processes is much more
>> adequate, where the goals of psychological research are concerned, than
>> the method of studying preexisting, objective responses. Only the
>> objectification of the inner process guarantees access to specific forms
>> of higher behavior as opposed to subordinate forms."
>>
>> Ultimately, an objective psychology is dialogic and dialectical...Am I
>> on the right track?
>> ~ Em
>>
>>
>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>>> In Chapter 1 of "Crisis in Psychology" Vygotsky talks a lot about
>>> "subjective psychology", which might shed more light on exactly what
>>> he meant by "objective psychology".
>>> I think he is talking about the methodology for collecting and
>>> analysing data. "Subjective Psychology" regards data accessible by
>>> introspection as the only truly valid data for psychology. As opposed
>>> to psychoanalysis, behaviourism, reflexology and his own methods of
>>> experimentation, which in different ways demand that material data
>>> determined by observation by another person must form the basis for
>>> scientific study.
>>> Andy
>>> At 03:40 PM 18/05/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> This summer I'm trying to catch up on some long-overdue reading. I've
>>>> begun
>>>> with Vol. 3 of the Plenum series, the Collected Works of L. S.
>>>>
> Vygotsky:
>
>>>> Problems with the History and Theory of Psychology.
>>>>
>>>> First, Rene van der Veer's Foreword and introductory chapter are well
>>>> worth
>>>> reading, particularly in informing our periodic discussions of
>>>> problems with
>>>> translation from one language to another; and especially of translating
>>>> Vygotsky, who "never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its
>>>> style and
>>>> readability" (van der Veer, p. v).
>>>>
>>>> Vol. 3 of the English-language version is actually Vol. 1 of the
>>>>
> Russian
>
>>>> collection, and it includes Leont'ev's introduction to the Russian
>>>> series
>>>> (Leont'ev's intro is titled "On Vygotsky's Creative Development"). I'm
>>>> puzzled by some of the phrasing, and wonder if I'm coming up against a
>>>> translation issue (which happened when I first read of Vygotsky's
>>>> "genetic"
>>>> method, which is developmental and not biological, as I'd originally
>>>> assumed). Leont'ev says that Vygotsky sought "to build a new, objective
>>>> psychology." I'm having trouble with the term "objective" here. My
>>>> sense of
>>>> Vygotsky's project was that it involved what we now think of as
>>>> constructivism, which is typically positioned against objectivism. At
>>>> the
>>>> same time, I know that some use the term "object" to refer to the
>>>> goal-oriented nature of activity. Can anyone help me with my trouble in
>>>> understanding the use of the term "objective" in this context?
>>>>
>>>> One final thing: I'm aware that there's some disagreement over the
>>>> extent to
>>>> which Vygotsky's work is Marxist. Leont'ev unambiguously describes
>>>> Vygotsky's work as inherently Marxist (e.g., "[Vygotsky's] new
>>>> psychology
>>>> which dealt with the most complex phenomena of the mental life of man,
>>>> including consciousness, could only evolve on the basis of Marxism"
>>>> (Leont'ev, p. 15). I'm not sure why others would think
>>>> differently--perhaps
>>>> someone who finds Vygotsky insuffiently Marxist could clarify.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, I hope that your own summer work is off to a good start.
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter Smagorinsky
>>>> The University of Georgia
>>>> Department of Language and Literacy Education
>>>> 125 Aderhold Hall
>>>> Athens, GA 30602-7123
>>>> smago@uga.edu /fax:706-542-4509/phone:706-542-4507/
>>>> http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>> Andy Blunden. The Subject -
>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/the-subject.htm
>>>
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>>>
>> --
>> He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them every day by storm.
>> -- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
>>
>> Emily Duvall
>> Doctoral Candidate (ABD) / Graduate Assistant-Instructor
>> Language and Literacy Education (LLED)
>> Department of Curriculum and Instruction
>> College of Education
>> Penn State University
>> 256 Chambers Bldg.
>> University Park , PA 16802
>> 814-861-3315 (home)
>> 814-404-6175 (cell)
>> 814-863-4511 (office)
>> FAX: 814-863-7602
>> email: edd130@psu.edu
>>
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-- 
He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them every day by storm.
-- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
Emily Duvall
Doctoral Candidate (ABD) / Graduate Assistant-Instructor
Language and Literacy Education (LLED)
Department of Curriculum and Instruction
College of Education
Penn State University
256 Chambers Bldg.
University Park , PA  16802
814-861-3315 (home)
814-404-6175 (cell)
814-863-4511 (office)
FAX: 814-863-7602
email: edd130@psu.edu
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