Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

Would you please tell us how can we get it online?
thank you
maria

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emily Duvall" <duvalleg@comcast.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's "objective" psychology

> In the 1925 "Consciousness as a problem in the psychology of behavior"
> (available online by the way), Vygotsky says excluding consciousness
> from the domain of scientific psychology preserves the dualism and
> spiritualism of subjective psychology. In discussing the subjective, he
> notes the following:.
>
> "In this view a subject's report is in no sense an act of
> self-observation that interferes like getting a spoon of tar into the
> barrel of honey of objective scientific investigation. No
> self-observation at all. The subject is not at all in the situation of
> an observer; he does not help an experimenter observe reflexes hidden
> from his view. To the very end, and during the actual giving of an
> account, a subject fully remains the object of an experiment; but
> certain changes or transformations are introduced into the experiment
> itself, through subsequent questioning; a new irritant is introduced (a
> new questioning), and a new reflex enables us to assess the undetected
> portions of the preceding one. The entire experiment passes through a
> "double lens".
> It is necessary to include such a passing of an experience through
> the secondary reactions of consciousness in the methods of psychological
> investigation. An individual's behavior and the establishment of new
> conditional reactions are governed not only by disclosed, complete, and
> fully detected reactions, but also by reactions, undisclosed in their
> external part, invisible to the naked eye."
> Later he states "the mechanism of social behavior and the mechanism
> of consciousness are the same. Speech, on the one hand, is a system of
> "reflexes for social contact", and, on the other, a system, most
> eminently, of reflexes of consciousness, a system for reflecting other
> systems.... The mechanism for knowing oneself (self-awareness) is the
> same as the mechanism for knowing others....The individual aspect of
> consciousness is constructed as derived and secondary, based on the
> social and exactly according to its model."
>
> My understanding, then, of objective psychology is that it is not
> based on a distinction of 'what I the scientist observe' about the
> person/process as being more scientific than 'what you observe about
> yourself', but that objective psychology includes as scientific 'what I
> the scientist observe' and 'what you are aware of and can tell me '.
> From Problems of Method:
>
> "We regard our method as important because it helps to objectify inner
> psychological processes; stimulus-response methods are objective, [p.
> 75] but they are limited to the study of external responses that are
> usually in the subject's repertoire to begin with. We believe that our
> approach to objectifying inner psychological processes is much more
> adequate, where the goals of psychological research are concerned, than
> the method of studying preexisting, objective responses. Only the
> objectification of the inner process guarantees access to specific forms
> of higher behavior as opposed to subordinate forms."
>
> Ultimately, an objective psychology is dialogic and dialectical...Am I
> on the right track?
> ~ Em
>
>
> Andy Blunden wrote:
> > In Chapter 1 of "Crisis in Psychology" Vygotsky talks a lot about
> > "subjective psychology", which might shed more light on exactly what
> > he meant by "objective psychology".
> > I think he is talking about the methodology for collecting and
> > analysing data. "Subjective Psychology" regards data accessible by
> > introspection as the only truly valid data for psychology. As opposed
> > to psychoanalysis, behaviourism, reflexology and his own methods of
> > experimentation, which in different ways demand that material data
> > determined by observation by another person must form the basis for
> > scientific study.
> > Andy
> > At 03:40 PM 18/05/2007 -0500, you wrote:
> >> This summer I'm trying to catch up on some long-overdue reading. I've
> >> begun
> >> with Vol. 3 of the Plenum series, the Collected Works of L. S.
Vygotsky:
> >> Problems with the History and Theory of Psychology.
> >>
> >> First, Rene van der Veer's Foreword and introductory chapter are well
> >> worth
> >> reading, particularly in informing our periodic discussions of
> >> problems with
> >> translation from one language to another; and especially of translating
> >> Vygotsky, who "never rewrote a text for the sake of improving its
> >> style and
> >> readability" (van der Veer, p. v).
> >>
> >> Vol. 3 of the English-language version is actually Vol. 1 of the
Russian
> >> collection, and it includes Leont'ev's introduction to the Russian
> >> series
> >> (Leont'ev's intro is titled "On Vygotsky's Creative Development"). I'm
> >> puzzled by some of the phrasing, and wonder if I'm coming up against a
> >> translation issue (which happened when I first read of Vygotsky's
> >> "genetic"
> >> method, which is developmental and not biological, as I'd originally
> >> assumed). Leont'ev says that Vygotsky sought "to build a new, objective
> >> psychology." I'm having trouble with the term "objective" here. My
> >> sense of
> >> Vygotsky's project was that it involved what we now think of as
> >> constructivism, which is typically positioned against objectivism. At
> >> the
> >> same time, I know that some use the term "object" to refer to the
> >> goal-oriented nature of activity. Can anyone help me with my trouble in
> >> understanding the use of the term "objective" in this context?
> >>
> >> One final thing: I'm aware that there's some disagreement over the
> >> extent to
> >> which Vygotsky's work is Marxist. Leont'ev unambiguously describes
> >> Vygotsky's work as inherently Marxist (e.g., "[Vygotsky's] new
> >> psychology
> >> which dealt with the most complex phenomena of the mental life of man,
> >> including consciousness, could only evolve on the basis of Marxism"
> >> (Leont'ev, p. 15). I'm not sure why others would think
> >> differently--perhaps
> >> someone who finds Vygotsky insuffiently Marxist could clarify.
> >>
> >> In any case, I hope that your own summer work is off to a good start.
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter Smagorinsky
> >> The University of Georgia
> >> Department of Language and Literacy Education
> >> 125 Aderhold Hall
> >> Athens, GA 30602-7123
> >> smago@uga.edu /fax:706-542-4509/phone:706-542-4507/
> >> http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/faculty/smagorinsky/index.html
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > Andy Blunden. The Subject -
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/the-subject.htm
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
> --
> He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them every day by storm.
> -- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
>
> Emily Duvall
> Doctoral Candidate (ABD) / Graduate Assistant-Instructor
> Language and Literacy Education (LLED)
> Department of Curriculum and Instruction
> College of Education
> Penn State University
> 256 Chambers Bldg.
> University Park , PA 16802
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Received on Sat May 19 05:46 PDT 2007