RE: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory of mind

From: <ERIC.RAMBERG who-is-at>
Date: Wed Apr 25 2007 - 10:15:27 PDT

What a great subject! Theory of mind is so little understood. It is a
nice title to a phenomena that lies somewhere betwixt the 6th sense and
wormholes. How do you explain the nature of autism? Temple Grandin is a
start. A novel by the title of "The curious incident of the dog in the
night time" is another step towards understaniding. I can come up with
other resources if interested.


                      Anna" To: <>, "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
                      <AStetsenko@gc.c <>
            > cc:
                      Sent by: Subject: RE: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory of mind
                      04/25/2007 10:46
                      Please respond
                      to "eXtended
                      Mind, Culture,

Mike, I recommend "Collaborative congnition" by Bearison & Dorval (2002) -
they analyzed rules negotiation during game format to access
intersubjectivity. Seems closely related to your interest and definitely
not above the horizon.


From: on behalf of Mike Cole
Sent: Tue 4/24/2007 10:32 PM
To: Paul Dillon
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory of

Hi Paul et al--

Seems like Minati and I have taken on a task that may be well over our
heads. And not only our heads. We asked Mike tomasello the same questions
about the relationship
between intersubjectivity, deception, and (implicitly) theory of mind we
asked you. Everyone comes back with answers that point over the horizon
(Martin-- by coincidence, my
first experiment in grad school was also on prisoners' dilemma-- lets hear
it for serendipity!!!). But Sartre, Searle, and other philosophers, and
GO masters, only leave me
in confusion. Seems time to sound the retreat to more accessible issues. !!
(ps. Minati with her deeper knowledge of Indian culture and philosophy may
have other ideas!)

On 4/24/07, Paul Dillon <> wrote:
> But just in case, check out the oldest game on earth, 5000+ years, and
> still no computer can even beat an amateur master . .
> Deep blue shows the shallowness of chess/western mind, Kasparov saying:
> was as though the machine read my mind! 1 million dollars for a computer
> program to beat an amateur go masters (SAY 2000 IN CHESS)
> By the way, how do you evaluate the gaze of a chess or go player as s/he
> looks at the opponent to judge whether s/he has grasped the intention of
> play? That's really one for ethnographemics, yeah?
> Paul
> *Mike Cole <>* wrote:
> Dear XMCA-o-philes........
> Our visitor Minati has engaged me in working with her on kids playing a
> complicated game. What we have is a running
> transcript of the narrative and observational notes (no videotape). From
> preliminary analysis, we want to talk about the players
> establishing joint attention and intersubjectivity (they are both
> attending
> to the game, they know the rules, etc.) but they are both trying to win
> and
> engage in clearly deceptive behaviors.
> We have been looking for a literature that combines intersubjectivity,
> deception, and perhaps theory of mind. The Machiavellian
> intelligence literature ought to have it, but we have not found it (and
> are talking humans here, not chimps, and 8-16
> year old humans, not infants).
> Can you provide us with any pointers of to look?
> mike (& Minati)
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