RE: [xmca] Unbelievable - & Spanish

From: Stetsenko, Anna (
Date: Sat Oct 21 2006 - 10:24:40 PDT

((this is in reponse to previous thread, written before Mike's message that just came in, hence still the old heading))
Michael, I would rephrase this in the following way:
in order to be 'fully dialectical' (perhaps the most important goal of all) one has to realize that it is impossible, ever, to be 'fully dialectical' -- with both opposites belonging together and making sense in light of each other (just as in Derrida's quote).
My biased view is that Vygotsky was 'fully dialectical' at least in the sense of him knowing that it was practically impossible to be that way (hence the importance of his self-critical stance which I highlighted before).


From: on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth
Sent: Sat 10/21/2006 8:26 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Unbelievable - & Spanish

I meant fully not as finite and complete, but as infinite and
incomplete. I also meant to say that we ought to be allowed to say
things LSV hasn't yet said because it was unfinished in his thinking
WITHOUT being called heretic.
There is a nice essay by Husserl in his Crisis texts, it is called
something like the "Origin of Geometry" where he writes about the
reproduction and production of ideas, a process by means of which
geometry becomes ideal... and his use of the word ideal appeared to
me not unlike the one by dialectical philosophers such as Il'enkov.

On 20-Oct-06, at 5:05 PM, Stetsenko, Anna wrote:

Michael, there is a curious contradiction in what you are saying --
because "fully thinking dialectically" (your expressions) is
impossible by the very nature of what dialectics takes thinking to be
-- positing it as a process that can never be complete, full,
terminal in any sense. Instead, dialectical thinking presupposes that
there is always a next step, and a new height, however 'full' one's
thinking is. Vygotsky at least was fully aware of this, by the way,
as is clear from many of his works, including the 'Crisis' (where he
is extremely self-critical and self-reflective as to inclompleteness
of his own thinking and where he predicts that his own ideas will
have to be challenged in the future; see last passage of this work).

And how about this, from Vygotsky:
1. one can certainly think without words
2. the ability to think without words is only given by the words.

pretty dialectical, I'm thinking (though not fully dialectically).


From: on behalf of Wolff-Michael Roth
Sent: Fri 10/20/2006 3:46 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Unbelievable - & Spanish

In all your deliberations about (mono, bi-, multi-) lingualism,
consider the following incompossible, contradictory propositions that
are truly dialectical in their tenure and are sublated in actual
human praxis:

1. We only ever speak one language.
2. We never speak only one language.
(Derrida, 1998, p. 7)

Derrida, J. (1998). Monolingualism of the Other; or, The prosthesis
of origin. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press.

To anyone interested in a dialectical account that LSV never could
achieve because he was not fully thinking dialectically---according
to a number of texts I recently came across---I recommend this little
booklet very highly.

I think we are allowed, and this is fully compatible with a
dialectical theory of science (see Il'enkov) to go beyond the giants
(i.e., LSV) on whose shoulders we stand.



On 20-Oct-06, at 10:08 AM, wrote:

Ok guys,
let's go with bilingualism
vamos con el bilinguismo

As a first time, I´m going to try with both languages at the same time.
Como es la primera vez, voy a intentar usar las dos lenguas.

My comment today is that it is very important to realize that a real
bilingualism should include scientific knowledge -whatever you want to
understand by this.
Mi primer comentario es que considero muy importante darse cuenta de
que un
bilinguismo total debe incluir el conocimiento científico.

Last week, Olga Vazquez visited my University and made a presentation
on "La
clase mágica". One of the most relevant comments from the audience -
all of us
spanish researchers and undergradute students- was about the
bilingualism that we still perceived within that so interesting
implemented by Olga and her collaborators.
La semana pasada Olga Vazquez estuvo en mi Universidad presentando su
investigación en "La clase Mágica". El comentario más repetido por
parte de la
audiencia fue sobre nuestra percepción de que el bilinguismo
implícito en la
experiencia es todavía asimétrico.

We expressed this idea in terms of a defense of Spanish as a scientic
language. But we also realized that it would be applied to other
languages and
we made a parallelism between the Mexican at the USA and the arabian
at Spain.
Expresamos esa idea como la necesidad de defender el español como
científico. Pero también éramos conscientes de que eso afecta al
resto de las
lenguas. Reflexionamos sobre la situación de los inmigrantes de
origen árabe
en ESpaña y establecíamos un cierto paralelismo con la situación de los
inmigrantes de origen Mexicano (hispanos en general) implicados en la

So I think is time to tackle the issue in XMCA, but I wonder if
Thought &
Language is to long as a first attempt. We can go twofold. Just some
from T&L. Or just some chapters from M in S. I'll delighted any way.
Así que creo que ha llegado el momento de abordar este asunto dentro
pero creo que Pensamiento y Lenguaje puede resultad demasiado largo
para un
primer intento. Podemos empezar por algún capítulo aunque también
hacer lo mismo con "Mind in Society". Estaré encantado con cualquiera
de las
dos opciones.



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