Seems like Ragnar R was carried in by Steve without being heralded directly
and that you have stimulated a really great dicussion, Don.
Just as we seem to be using the term, constraint, differently, we probably
think about the issue of free will differently. Or maybe we do. I really
like your excercise on spanking and the certainty of experts. But I am
uncertain about the idea that we use constraints as a way to keep pandora's
box closed so we do not have to confront the idea of free will.
I posted this quote in another context earlier, but it seems relevant here.
>From A.R. Luria,
1932, Nature of human conflicts.
"Many observations support our view that the consideration of the voluntary
act as accomplished by "will-power" is a myth and that the human cannot by
direct force control his behavior any more than "a shadow can carry stones".
The development of the voluntary processes comes about as a result of the
elaboration of the various forms of behavior, the mobilization of the
Quasi-Bedurfnisse to achieve his ends. Voluntary behavior is the ability to
create stimuli and to subordinate them; or in other words, to bring into
being stimuli of a special order, directed to the organization of behavior.
The "Quasi-Bedurfniess" refernce is to a concept introduced by Kurt Lewin
about culturally shaped motives, or motives introduced into a situation a
psychologist could observe.
My experience coincides with yours, Don, that as educators, or
psychologists, or whatever we call ourselves, we are interested in causes
and we routinely oversimplify. We find it impossible to think relationally,
or co-relationally as bb puts it, except when we
have lots of tools at our disposal to get us to be able to look at clouds
and life from
two sides at the same time.
mike
On 4/19/06, bb <xmca-whoever@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> "Learning leads development" seems causal, while not deterministic in any
> absolute sense. But pushed against the wall, i'd have to admit only to
> things/events/development being co-relational, in terms of what preceeds
> what
> in some degree of most of the time. Triadic discourse sometimes displays
> what seems to be a high degree of determinancy. Consider this thought
> experiment:
>
> I: What is the capital of Washington?
> R: Seattle
> E/I: WRONG. What is the capital of Washington?
>
> [In many situations, there is a very small chance -- arguably much lower
> probability than the first reponse -- that "Seattle" will be offered
> again,
> but this is situationally dependent, eg. If setting up for a joke, the
> probability of co-occurance could be quite high]
>
> Clap sequences that first grade teachers use to create joint attention
> seem
> causal, but only after students learn the script:
>
> I: clap clap.. clap clap clap
> R: clap clap
>
> Coming from kindergarten, in the first days of first grade, many children
> respond instead the following way, because their kindergarten teacher asks
> them to repeat what she claps:
>
> I: clap clap.. clap clap clap
> R: clap clap.. clap clap clap
>
> And also consider this applause for Don's clever uncertainties.
>
> bb
>
>
>
> On Wednesday 19 April 2006 9:26 am, Cunningham, Donald James wrote:
> > Aren't we (we who study learning and development) determinists by
> > nature? Don't we want to understand the "causes" of things? Why is this
> > fatalistic? "Constraints" is just another version where we limit the
> > options to a manageable number without opening the Pandora's box of free
> > will. But the idea of cause is still implicated. There are causes for
> > things. Or do they just happen and we mere mortals try to figure out
> > why? Hobbes is no doubt spinning in his grave as I write!
> >
> > One of the links I made from the article Peter forwarded was to some
> > work Sandra Scarr did a generation ago. If my creaky memory is correct,
> > she was looking at the literature on parenting and IQ. The usual
> > analysis looked at whether certain parenting styles led to kids with
> > higher IQs. Scarr looked at the opposite, whether kids with certain IQs
> > "caused" certain parenting styles. Which is the future, which is the
> > past?
> >
> > A little exercise I offer my students is to pretend that they now have
> > their Ph.D and are _experts_. They are asked a simple question, should I
> > spank my children. They all have strong opinions about the issue, what
> > leads to what, with both sides of the issue well represented. Then I
> > have them read a series of articles from 2002 (Elizabeth Gershoff wrote
> > the original piece) as well as news releases (including one from "Focus
> > on the Family") at the time. Do they now feel more confident in
> > answering the question? Most don't. They say things like, "It depends"!
> > So, the more we know, the more uncertain we are? Was Anthony Giddens
> > correct all along? Do we manufacture uncertainty? I'm not sure. Maybe it
> > depends............djc
> >
> > Don Cunningham
> > Indiana University
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:53 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Cc: Barbara Rogoff
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] nice, short article illustrating prolepsis
> >
> > I guess I was more focused on the idea of constraints than
> > determinations,
> > Don. You can guide
> > a horse to water, but..........
> >
> > And in general, the idea that constraints are both enabling and
> > restricting
> > makes a lot of sense to me,
> > despite the seduction of relapsing into determinism.
> >
> > It seems to me that the main thrust of the idea of prolepsis is to
> > introduced the idea that the (imagined, pro-jected)
> > future can influence the present. It speaks to the linkage between
> > cultural
> > mediational theories of development and
> > the idea of NON LINEAR dynamic systems. As I understand it
> > (inadequately, I
> > am certain), cultural contributions to
> > human nature and action are non-linear, creating uncertainty and the
> > possibility of agency all the time, even if our
> > common sense tells us it aint so.
> >
> > Why else would anyone try to speak truth to power?
> >
> > In the recent Middleton and Brown book there is a great discussion of
> > Bergson's ideas. he is much maligned, by, among
> > others, Russian cultura-historical psychologists. And of course, he can
> > be
> > interpreted in ways that make his ideas laughable....
> > (he is not alone in this respect!). But Middleton and Brown have some
> > nice
> > material on the way that Bergson pointed to the
> > ways in which the built environment (like kids' rooms) influences their
> > mental life. In a recent article by cultural psychologists
> > Kitayama and ?? they discover that some of the differences between west
> > and
> > east that they assume come from the differently
> > built environments without realizing that Rheingold and Bergson were
> > there
> > before them.
> >
> > No need for police but the discussion sure is worthwhile, for me at
> > least.
> > mike
> >
> > PS. I will cc Barbara Rogoff on this exchange. I wonder if she
> > interprets
> > the idea of "guided participation" to imply that the
> > guidance determines the response.
> >
> > On 4/18/06, Cunningham, Donald James <cunningh@indiana.edu> wrote:
> > > I did, actually. I was struck by the phrase (on page 462) that the
> > > parents were "guided by some more compelling set of principles".
> > >
> > > What would the OED make of that?
> > >
> > > Don Cunningham
> > > Indiana University
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:19 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] nice, short article illustrating prolepsis
> > >
> > > Don-- Did you read the article?
> > > Anyway, who needs word police when we have the oed:
> > >
> > > Determinism: 1)The philosophical doctrine that human action is not
> >
> > free
> >
> > > but
> > > necessarily determined by motives, which are regarded as external
> >
> > forces
> >
> > > acting upon the will.2) The doctrine that everything that happens is
> > > determined by a necessary chain of causation.
> > >
> > > Prolepsis: 1) The representation or taking of something future as
> > > already
> > > done or existing; anticipation; also, the assignment of an event, a
> > > name,
> > > etc. to a too early date; an anachronism, prochronism. 2) A figure in
> > > which
> > > objections or arguments are anticipated in order to preclude their
> >
> > use,
> >
> > > answer them in advance, or prepare for them an unfavourable
> >
> > reception;3)
> >
> > > The
> > > anticipatory use of an attribute.
> > >
> > > What do the police think of this? Do we need to call in Ragnar
> > > Rommetveit to
> > > adjudicate?
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On 4/18/06, Cunningham, Donald James <cunningh@indiana.edu> wrote:
> > > > Hello Peter. The word police here. What is the difference between
> > > > prolepsis and determinism?
> > > >
> > > > Don Cunningham
> > > > Indiana University
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> >
> > > > On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:55 PM
> > > > To: xmca@ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: [xmca] nice, short article illustrating prolepsis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rheingold, H. L., & Cook, K. V. (1975). The contents of boys' and
> > > > girls'
> > > > rooms as an index of parents' behavior. Child Development, 46,
> > >
> > > 459-463.
> > >
> > > > Retrieved April 18, 2006, from
> > > > http://www.jstor.org/view/00093920/ap030175/03a00210/0.
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