"Learning leads development" seems causal, while not deterministic in any
absolute sense. But pushed against the wall, i'd have to admit only to
things/events/development being co-relational, in terms of what preceeds what
in some degree of most of the time. Triadic discourse sometimes displays
what seems to be a high degree of determinancy. Consider this thought
experiment:
I: What is the capital of Washington?
R: Seattle
E/I: WRONG. What is the capital of Washington?
[In many situations, there is a very small chance -- arguably much lower
probability than the first reponse -- that "Seattle" will be offered again,
but this is situationally dependent, eg. If setting up for a joke, the
probability of co-occurance could be quite high]
Clap sequences that first grade teachers use to create joint attention seem
causal, but only after students learn the script:
I: clap clap.. clap clap clap
R: clap clap
Coming from kindergarten, in the first days of first grade, many children
respond instead the following way, because their kindergarten teacher asks
them to repeat what she claps:
I: clap clap.. clap clap clap
R: clap clap.. clap clap clap
And also consider this applause for Don's clever uncertainties.
bb
On Wednesday 19 April 2006 9:26 am, Cunningham, Donald James wrote:
> Aren't we (we who study learning and development) determinists by
> nature? Don't we want to understand the "causes" of things? Why is this
> fatalistic? "Constraints" is just another version where we limit the
> options to a manageable number without opening the Pandora's box of free
> will. But the idea of cause is still implicated. There are causes for
> things. Or do they just happen and we mere mortals try to figure out
> why? Hobbes is no doubt spinning in his grave as I write!
>
> One of the links I made from the article Peter forwarded was to some
> work Sandra Scarr did a generation ago. If my creaky memory is correct,
> she was looking at the literature on parenting and IQ. The usual
> analysis looked at whether certain parenting styles led to kids with
> higher IQs. Scarr looked at the opposite, whether kids with certain IQs
> "caused" certain parenting styles. Which is the future, which is the
> past?
>
> A little exercise I offer my students is to pretend that they now have
> their Ph.D and are _experts_. They are asked a simple question, should I
> spank my children. They all have strong opinions about the issue, what
> leads to what, with both sides of the issue well represented. Then I
> have them read a series of articles from 2002 (Elizabeth Gershoff wrote
> the original piece) as well as news releases (including one from "Focus
> on the Family") at the time. Do they now feel more confident in
> answering the question? Most don't. They say things like, "It depends"!
> So, the more we know, the more uncertain we are? Was Anthony Giddens
> correct all along? Do we manufacture uncertainty? I'm not sure. Maybe it
> depends............djc
>
> Don Cunningham
> Indiana University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:53 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Cc: Barbara Rogoff
> Subject: Re: [xmca] nice, short article illustrating prolepsis
>
> I guess I was more focused on the idea of constraints than
> determinations,
> Don. You can guide
> a horse to water, but..........
>
> And in general, the idea that constraints are both enabling and
> restricting
> makes a lot of sense to me,
> despite the seduction of relapsing into determinism.
>
> It seems to me that the main thrust of the idea of prolepsis is to
> introduced the idea that the (imagined, pro-jected)
> future can influence the present. It speaks to the linkage between
> cultural
> mediational theories of development and
> the idea of NON LINEAR dynamic systems. As I understand it
> (inadequately, I
> am certain), cultural contributions to
> human nature and action are non-linear, creating uncertainty and the
> possibility of agency all the time, even if our
> common sense tells us it aint so.
>
> Why else would anyone try to speak truth to power?
>
> In the recent Middleton and Brown book there is a great discussion of
> Bergson's ideas. he is much maligned, by, among
> others, Russian cultura-historical psychologists. And of course, he can
> be
> interpreted in ways that make his ideas laughable....
> (he is not alone in this respect!). But Middleton and Brown have some
> nice
> material on the way that Bergson pointed to the
> ways in which the built environment (like kids' rooms) influences their
> mental life. In a recent article by cultural psychologists
> Kitayama and ?? they discover that some of the differences between west
> and
> east that they assume come from the differently
> built environments without realizing that Rheingold and Bergson were
> there
> before them.
>
> No need for police but the discussion sure is worthwhile, for me at
> least.
> mike
>
> PS. I will cc Barbara Rogoff on this exchange. I wonder if she
> interprets
> the idea of "guided participation" to imply that the
> guidance determines the response.
>
> On 4/18/06, Cunningham, Donald James <cunningh@indiana.edu> wrote:
> > I did, actually. I was struck by the phrase (on page 462) that the
> > parents were "guided by some more compelling set of principles".
> >
> > What would the OED make of that?
> >
> > Don Cunningham
> > Indiana University
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:19 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] nice, short article illustrating prolepsis
> >
> > Don-- Did you read the article?
> > Anyway, who needs word police when we have the oed:
> >
> > Determinism: 1)The philosophical doctrine that human action is not
>
> free
>
> > but
> > necessarily determined by motives, which are regarded as external
>
> forces
>
> > acting upon the will.2) The doctrine that everything that happens is
> > determined by a necessary chain of causation.
> >
> > Prolepsis: 1) The representation or taking of something future as
> > already
> > done or existing; anticipation; also, the assignment of an event, a
> > name,
> > etc. to a too early date; an anachronism, prochronism. 2) A figure in
> > which
> > objections or arguments are anticipated in order to preclude their
>
> use,
>
> > answer them in advance, or prepare for them an unfavourable
>
> reception;3)
>
> > The
> > anticipatory use of an attribute.
> >
> > What do the police think of this? Do we need to call in Ragnar
> > Rommetveit to
> > adjudicate?
> > mike
> >
> > On 4/18/06, Cunningham, Donald James <cunningh@indiana.edu> wrote:
> > > Hello Peter. The word police here. What is the difference between
> > > prolepsis and determinism?
> > >
> > > Don Cunningham
> > > Indiana University
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>
> > > On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:55 PM
> > > To: xmca@ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: [xmca] nice, short article illustrating prolepsis
> > >
> > >
> > > Rheingold, H. L., & Cook, K. V. (1975). The contents of boys' and
> > > girls'
> > > rooms as an index of parents' behavior. Child Development, 46,
> >
> > 459-463.
> >
> > > Retrieved April 18, 2006, from
> > > http://www.jstor.org/view/00093920/ap030175/03a00210/0.
> > > _______________________________________________
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