Well Eugene, I was addressing myself to the original proposition which
seemed to be about enjoyment but defined this in terms of a hypothetical
choice. As I said, I think the first thing would be to clarify our
question. Also, my own anecdotal investigations of over-55 employees at the
University of Melbourne showed me that even though almost all of these
people did have a choice, they all chose to go on working, and I know of
none in this little category who had in the recent past chosen, like I
have, to retire. (Included in my "sample" were plenty of people doing
routine non-academic technical, clerical or manual work.)
So the provisional conclusion I drew was that whether people enjoyed their
work or not, and even if they did not need to earn a living, they would not
choose to leave their jobs.
So I am inclined to think that the utilitarian conception of approaching
the whole question in terms of "enjoyment" is problematic. It is much more,
I suspect, to do with existential questions of meaning.
In relation to the British study, though they put "class" on their
masthead, I did not see anything about class in the little bit of what I
saw, only the good old sociological categories of income and employment
groups. And whether British research academics are "well paid" depends
entirely the position from which you view the question. I am very sure that
if British research academics were asked "Are you well paid?", the answer
would score a reasonable percentage of "Yes". Ask a sample of British
cleaners "Are academics well paid?" then you might get a different answer.
The insistence on activity (i.e., actually choosing to work or not) as a
focus of psychological research I would have thought is fairly well
founded, but I don't see the focus on activity as opposed to
opinion-polling as prejudicing an understanding of the self-consciousness
of working class people doing grinding, routine work. I does of course
present challenges to research; but after all research which does not face
any challenges is not really research, is it?
What do you think?
Andy
At 10:05 AM 15/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Andy and everybody
>
>
>
>It is still difficult for me to judge the methodology of the British study
>from the brief report they presented but I share importance of Andys
>questions and his call for collecting thick descriptionsbefore drawing to
>conclusions. Geoff might be more knowledgeable to reply about specifics of
>the study (I can send the report that Geoff sent to me to people who are
>interested in the report. It is about 2MB and very difficult to read
>because of strips they put on the text).
>
>
>
>Andy wrote, The original proposition was
>
>"95% working people in US do not like their jobs, i.e., do their job ONLY
>out of necessity to earn money."
>
>It is obvious to me that if you want to get an answer to the question of
>whether people really only work in order to earn money, you have to talk
>to people who do have a choice about whether to do a paying-job, half of
>whom presumably would be people who had decided not to work, and the rest
>would be only a small proportion of the workforce. Secondly, it seems to
>me that the data you would be looking for would be actual choices people
>make in their lives.
>
>
>
>There seems to me an interesting assumption here (Andy, please, correct me
>if Im wrong) that people can love something ONLY when they have actual
>choices. Although on the first glance it makes sense, I respectfully
>disagree with it. The assumption implies that when people are forced by
>circumstances or by necessity or by other people to do things, they cant
>genuinely like what they do. It basically denies happiness among working
>class people. I can just offer an anecdotal account of my grandmother who
>was born around 1900 (nobody knew for sure when) in a Belarus Jewish
>shtatle. All her life, first in Tsarist Russia and then in Stalinist
>Soviet Union, was driven by necessities with very-very little choice
>including where to live, what to eat, where to work, and so on with the
>rather rigid gender role in a patriarchic society. Nevertheless, she LOVED
>her job as a tailor that was imposed on her by the WWI and as a home cook
>that was imposed on her by her family. It is not true that when people are
>thrown (using Heideggers wording) in their job occupations they cant
>intrinsically love what they do. Im also not sure that choice is the only
>method to test what people really like.
>
>
>
>One may say, but if your grandmother had choices she might have chosen
>entire different life and occupation.That may be true but it does not mean
>that her not-so-chosen-life was not intrinsically valued by her. We should
>be aware that having actual choicesis a life style (and ideology) of
>(certain) middle class that has its own pros and CONs. In my view, one of
>CONs of this middle class choice driven life is that it often robs people
>from dependencies on and deep (and, yes, forced) commitments to other
>people and consequences that follow that (e.g., nostalgia of real communities).
>
>
>
>I may sound as a conservative reactionary justifying misery of working
>class people and preventing them from entering middle-class paradise of
>real choices. But Im not sure that it is a paradise and Im aware of many
>miseries of working class lives as Im aware of something good that working
>class has what is missing in middle class. I wonder if there is a third way&
>
>
>
>What do you think?
>
>
>
>Eugene
>
>
>
>----------
>From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
>Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:22 AM
>To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>Subject: RE: Jobs and motivation: Help is needed
>
>
>
>Eugene was kind enough to send me a PDF of the British "survey" about why
>people work, and my fears were confirmed. Only people who were in
>employment were questioned. They were asked for multiple-choice answers to
>questions about their feelings and their situation, and compared with a
>period of recession 10 years earlier. Altogether, the kind of information
>useful only for selling soap powder.
>
>The original proposition was
>
>"95% working people in US do not like their jobs, i.e., do their job ONLY
>out of necessity to earn money."
>
>It is obvious to me that if you want to get an answer to the question of
>whether people really only work in order to earn money, you have to talk
>to people who do have a choice about whether to do a paying-job, half of
>whom presumably would be people who had decided not to work, and the rest
>would be only a small proportion of the workforce. Secondly, it seems to
>me that the data you would be looking for would be actual choices people
>make in their lives. Such constraints would make it very difficult if not
>impossible to get good statistical samples, but at least you would get
>relevant information. :-)
>
>Andy
>
>
>At 12:10 AM 13/12/2003 +1100, you wrote:
>
>Well, my experience makes me think that a survey will have to be very
>clever to get to the truth here. The answer that people give to things
>like "Why do you work?" more often than not are code for "I don't know".
>Also it is entirely tied up with the alternatives people have to "work".
>
>Andy
>At 06:52 AM 12/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Geoff kindly sent me Taylor's report on 2000 survey in UK about quality of
>jobs (of 2466 diverse employees participated in the survey). On the question
>of "Why to work?" only 16% of higher professionals and 2% of semi-skilled
>workers (the other in-between) referred to "enjoyment". Other responses were
>"for money", "career", "being with others" and so on. However, when asked "A
>job is just means for a living?" only 21% of higher professionals and 54% of
>semi-skilled workers said "yes". The picture is complex but "enjoyment" of
>jobs does not seem very high.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Eugene
>PS Thanks Geoff for the report!
>PSS I wish similar survey existed in US! Does anybody know about such study?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:22 PM
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: Jobs and motivation: Help is needed
> >
> > When I retired last year I had a lot of discussions with colleagues about
> > whether they could do the same. The response I got was very very uniform,
> > from the lowest maintenance worker up to professors running big research
> > programs: "OK I'm over 55 and my superannuation entitlements are already
> > much bigger than yours and yes my kids have left home but ...." where
> > followed all sorts of excuses, like the need to buy a holiday house or
> > something. I found that people are very very reluctant to separate
> > themselves from their job even if they hate their job and even if they
> > don't need the money, but the need for money was invariably 'used' as the
> > reason for going on working.
> >
> > (doesn't count as scientific research I know, but the message was very
>clear)
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > At 03:17 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Dear Mark-
> > >
> > >Sorry for the delay - I was busy hosting my friend and colleague from
>South
> > >Africa...
> > >
> > >Thanks a lot for the reference that seems to contradict to the statement
>in
> > >the Russian immigrant newspaper "Despite our occasional temptation to
>call
> > >it quits, most Americans (70%) are saying that even if they won a large
> > >enough amount of money in the lottery, they would still continue to work.
> > >
> > >These are the findings of a recent study conducted by Opinion Research
> > >Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCI). According to the study, only 28% of Americans
> > >would quit their jobs if they won the lottery."
> > >http://www.orcinternational.com/caravan-053102.htm
> > >
> > >However, everything depends how the questions were asked which I could
>not
> > >find. Also, it is not clear that whether these cited 70% of respondents
>want
> > >to work in general or they want to stay at the work that they are
>currently
> > >employed. I wish I could find their full report...
> > >
> > >Interesting...
> > >
> > >Eugene
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Mark P Smith [mailto:mpsmith@UDel.Edu]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:11 PM
> > > > To: Eugene Matusov
> > > > Subject: Re: Jobs and motivation: Help is needed
> > > >
> > > > Hi Eugene,
> > > >
> > > > I doubt this is the resarch you're looking for. It's conducted by a
> > > > telephone sampling company. But it contradicts what you wrote, I
>think.
> > > >
> > > > My question: who do "consumer sampling companies" ask questions to?
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > http://www.orcinternational.com/caravan-053102.htm
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Eugene Matusov wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear everybody-
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > When I was in California, I read in a Russian immigrant newspaper
>about
> > >an
> > > > > US study, according to which 95% working people in US do not like
>their
> > >jobs
> > > > > ("zanimayutsya ne lyubimym delom" in Russian). The choice of words
>in
> > > > > Russian indicates that these people do their job ONLY out of
>necessity
> > >to
> > > > > earn money but if they have enough money (e.g., won lottery) they
>would
> > >stop
> > > > > doing their jobs.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Have anybody heard about such study? If so, can you provide
>reference,
> > > > > please?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene
> > > > >
> > > > >
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