Dear Andy and everybody-
It is still difficult for me to judge the methodology of the British study
from the brief report they presented but I share importance of Andy's
questions and his call for collecting "thick descriptions" before drawing to
conclusions. Geoff might be more knowledgeable to reply about specifics of
the study (I can send the report that Geoff sent to me to people who are
interested in the report. It is about 2MB and very difficult to read because
of strips they put on the text).
Andy wrote, "The original proposition was
"95% working people in US do not like their jobs, i.e., do their job ONLY
out of necessity to earn money."
It is obvious to me that if you want to get an answer to the question of
whether people really only work in order to earn money, you have to talk to
people who do have a choice about whether to do a paying-job, half of whom
presumably would be people who had decided not to work, and the rest would
be only a small proportion of the workforce. Secondly, it seems to me that
the data you would be looking for would be actual choices people make in
their lives."
There seems to me an interesting assumption here (Andy, please, correct me
if I'm wrong) that people can love something ONLY when they have actual
choices. Although on the first glance it makes sense, I respectfully
disagree with it. The assumption implies that when people are forced by
circumstances or by necessity or by other people to do things, they can't
genuinely like what they do. It basically denies happiness among working
class people. I can just offer an anecdotal account of my grandmother who
was born around 1900 (nobody knew for sure when) in a Belarus Jewish
shtatle. All her life, first in Tsarist Russia and then in Stalinist Soviet
Union, was driven by necessities with very-very little choice including
where to live, what to eat, where to work, and so on with the rather rigid
gender role in a patriarchic society. Nevertheless, she LOVED her job as a
tailor that was imposed on her by the WWI and as a home cook that was
imposed on her by her family. It is not true that when people are thrown
(using Heidegger's wording) in their job occupations they can't
intrinsically love what they do. I'm also not sure that choice is the only
method to test what people really like.
One may say, "but if your grandmother had choices she might have chosen
entire different life and occupation." That may be true but it does not mean
that her not-so-chosen-life was not intrinsically valued by her. We should
be aware that "having actual choices" is a life style (and ideology) of
(certain) middle class that has its own pros and CONs. In my view, one of
CONs of this middle class choice driven life is that it often robs people
from dependencies on and deep (and, yes, forced) commitments to other people
and consequences that follow that (e.g., nostalgia of real communities).
I may sound as a conservative reactionary justifying misery of working class
people and preventing them from entering middle-class paradise of real
choices. But I'm not sure that it is a paradise and I'm aware of many
miseries of working class lives as I'm aware of something good that working
class has what is missing in middle class. I wonder if there is a "third
way".
What do you think?
Eugene
_____
From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 12:22 AM
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: RE: Jobs and motivation: Help is needed
Eugene was kind enough to send me a PDF of the British "survey" about why
people work, and my fears were confirmed. Only people who were in employment
were questioned. They were asked for multiple-choice answers to questions
about their feelings and their situation, and compared with a period of
recession 10 years earlier. Altogether, the kind of information useful only
for selling soap powder.
The original proposition was
"95% working people in US do not like their jobs, i.e., do their job ONLY
out of necessity to earn money."
It is obvious to me that if you want to get an answer to the question of
whether people really only work in order to earn money, you have to talk to
people who do have a choice about whether to do a paying-job, half of whom
presumably would be people who had decided not to work, and the rest would
be only a small proportion of the workforce. Secondly, it seems to me that
the data you would be looking for would be actual choices people make in
their lives. Such constraints would make it very difficult if not impossible
to get good statistical samples, but at least you would get relevant
information. :-)
Andy
At 12:10 AM 13/12/2003 +1100, you wrote:
Well, my experience makes me think that a survey will have to be very clever
to get to the truth here. The answer that people give to things like "Why do
you work?" more often than not are code for "I don't know". Also it is
entirely tied up with the alternatives people have to "work".
Andy
At 06:52 AM 12/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Geoff kindly sent me Taylor's report on 2000 survey in UK about quality of
jobs (of 2466 diverse employees participated in the survey). On the question
of "Why to work?" only 16% of higher professionals and 2% of semi-skilled
workers (the other in-between) referred to "enjoyment". Other responses were
"for money", "career", "being with others" and so on. However, when asked "A
job is just means for a living?" only 21% of higher professionals and 54% of
semi-skilled workers said "yes". The picture is complex but "enjoyment" of
jobs does not seem very high.
What do you think?
Eugene
PS Thanks Geoff for the report!
PSS I wish similar survey existed in US! Does anybody know about such study?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:22 PM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: Jobs and motivation: Help is needed
>
> When I retired last year I had a lot of discussions with colleagues about
> whether they could do the same. The response I got was very very uniform,
> from the lowest maintenance worker up to professors running big research
> programs: "OK I'm over 55 and my superannuation entitlements are already
> much bigger than yours and yes my kids have left home but ...." where
> followed all sorts of excuses, like the need to buy a holiday house or
> something. I found that people are very very reluctant to separate
> themselves from their job even if they hate their job and even if they
> don't need the money, but the need for money was invariably 'used' as the
> reason for going on working.
>
> (doesn't count as scientific research I know, but the message was very
clear)
>
> Andy
>
>
> At 03:17 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >Dear Mark-
> >
> >Sorry for the delay - I was busy hosting my friend and colleague from
South
> >Africa...
> >
> >Thanks a lot for the reference that seems to contradict to the statement
in
> >the Russian immigrant newspaper "Despite our occasional temptation to
call
> >it quits, most Americans (70%) are saying that even if they won a large
> >enough amount of money in the lottery, they would still continue to work.
> >
> >These are the findings of a recent study conducted by Opinion Research
> >Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCI). According to the study, only 28% of Americans
> >would quit their jobs if they won the lottery."
> >http://www.orcinternational.com/caravan-053102.htm
> >
> >However, everything depends how the questions were asked which I could
not
> >find. Also, it is not clear that whether these cited 70% of respondents
want
> >to work in general or they want to stay at the work that they are
currently
> >employed. I wish I could find their full report...
> >
> >Interesting...
> >
> >Eugene
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mark P Smith [mailto:mpsmith@UDel.Edu]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:11 PM
> > > To: Eugene Matusov
> > > Subject: Re: Jobs and motivation: Help is needed
> > >
> > > Hi Eugene,
> > >
> > > I doubt this is the resarch you're looking for. It's conducted by a
> > > telephone sampling company. But it contradicts what you wrote, I
think.
> > >
> > > My question: who do "consumer sampling companies" ask questions to?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > http://www.orcinternational.com/caravan-053102.htm
> > >
> > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Eugene Matusov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear everybody-
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > When I was in California, I read in a Russian immigrant newspaper
about
> >an
> > > > US study, according to which 95% working people in US do not like
their
> >jobs
> > > > ("zanimayutsya ne lyubimym delom" in Russian). The choice of words
in
> > > > Russian indicates that these people do their job ONLY out of
necessity
> >to
> > > > earn money but if they have enough money (e.g., won lottery) they
would
> >stop
> > > > doing their jobs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have anybody heard about such study? If so, can you provide
reference,
> > > > please?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Eugene
> > > >
> > > >
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