Re: rules of the game
Ricardo Ottoni (rjapias who-is-at ibm.net)
Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:13:41 -0300
Ricardo Ottoni wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I think there was a fail in the sistem, I just clicked the re-mail
> button on netscape tool bar.
>=20
> Eugene Matusov wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ricardo--
> >
> > You sent me your reply not through XMCA. Did you want to shift our
> > discussion to a private one or you just used the wrong button for rep=
ly? I
> > think other XMCA people may be interested in your reply. In any case=
,
> > please, let me know either by resending the message via XMCA or just =
send me
> > a confirmation that you want a private discussion.
> >
> > I'm impatiently looking forward to reply to you.
> >
> > Have a nice weekend,
> >
> > Eugene
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ricardo Ottoni [mailto:rjapias@ibm.net]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:38 PM
> > > To: ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu
> > > Subject: Re: rules of the game
> > >
> > >
> > > > Actually, I do not fully agree with that. It can be much
> > > better to control
> > > > people who can read and write.
> > >
> > > Yes, you're right.
> > >
> > > I remember reading an article in the early
> > > > 1980s or end 1970s in an educational UNESCO journal (I forgot
> > > it's title, it
> > > > is not "Culture") by a Spanish educator arguing that one of the f=
irst
> > > > concerns of totalist regimes to establish mass education and
> > > mass literacy.
> > > > According to the author, a totalitarist government can't
> > > control minds of
> > > > illiterate people as effectively as literate people. The author =
gave
> > > > examples of Soviet Union, Germany, Italy, Spain, China, and
> > > Cuba. In other
> > > > words, literacy and (school) education can be not only a road
> > > to paradise
> > > > (i.e., critical thinking, membership in intellectual
> > > middle-class) as people
> > > > of entlightment predicted but also to hell.
> > >
> > > Yes, I do think so.
> > >
> > > Totalitarist regimes,
> > > > neo-colonization, and cultural genocide of minorities are sad
> > > examples of
> > > > the latter.
> > > >
> > > > However, it seems to me that known authoritative dictatorial regi=
mes of
> > > > Central and Southern America and Africa seem to differ from the
> > > totalitarist
> > > > regimes in this point by not caring about mass education and
> > > mass literacy.
> > >
> > > Not only the totalitatist countries can control people through mass
> > > education and literacy...
> > >
> > > But, you're right, in South America capitalism is much more primiti=
ve
> > > and violent... Now-a-days the midia power had decrease the
> > > impunity and autoritarism of "democratic" governments although the =
midia
> > > can control people perception and opinion in some way.
> > >
> > > > Is it fair to say?
> > >
> > > Yes, I think.
> > >
> > > Interesting. Any ideas why?
> > >
> > > "electoral stables" are very comom, specially in states where there=
are
> > > many people not literated. Candidates exchange votes to money, heal=
th
> > > care, building material etc. To vote, at least in Brazil, is someth=
ing
> > > one does constrained by law. There is not a free sistem of voting. =
You
> > > have to vote. Many people do not really believe in cadidates or in
> > > democracy (whith has its piece of totalitarism) since people are
> > > governed by the State of Law.
> > >
> > > Anarchists are minority here.
> > > >
> > > > > It's a complex issue and my limited english embaraces me. But m=
e too,
> > > > > when playing teacher/professor role, try to reduce damage and h=
arm to
> > > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > I, maybe naively, believe that it is possible as well -- otherwis=
e, I'd
> > > > change the profession.
> > >
> > > I specially like teach in public school (much more diversity)
> > >
> > > I agree with you that the issue is complex. I'd love
> > > > to hear more from you on this issue!
> > > >
> > > > > I like the metaphor used by Ricardo Baqueiro in "Vygotsky and s=
chool
> > > > > learning" (an aproximative traduction of his book title in port=
uguese)
> > > > > when he says new role of teachers now-a-days, since a vygotskia=
n
> > > > > perspective, is something like a "trafic policiman" (trafic
> > > cop) trying
> > > > > to avoid colision of different meaning utterances and cultural
> > > > > determined perceptions and values.
> > > >
> > > > What a wonderful metaphor! Thanks, Ricardo. Do you know if the =
book is
> > > > available in English or Russian?
> > >
> > > I'm not sure, but in spanish his book is called:
> > > "Vygotsky y el aprendizaje escolar". Buenos Aires, Argentina: Aique
> > > Grupo Editor S.A., 1996 (Cap. 6, p. 136)
> > >
> > > I'll pass the metaphor to my students.
> > >
> > > I'd like to read texts written by you. Is there any in your HP? Wha=
t's
> > > your HP address?
> > > >
> > > > Take care,
> > > >
> > > > Eugene
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > Eugene Matusov
> > > > School of Education
> > > > University of Delaware
> > > > Newark, DE 19716
> > > > Office (302) 831-1266
> > > > Fax (302) 831-4445
> > > > email ematusov who-is-at udel.edu
> > > > Website http://ematusov.eds.udel.edu/
> > > > -------------------------
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Ricardo Ottoni [mailto:rjapias@ibm.net]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:44 PM
> > > > > To: ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu
> > > > > Subject: Re: rules of the game
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene Matusov wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Ricardo and everybody--
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my observation, those who have less power (e.g., students)
> > > > > can't afford
> > > > > > to be intolerant or deaf to the position of those who are
> > > more powerful
> > > > > > (e.g., professors).
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe "students" know very well how powerfull "teachers" ar=
e in
> > > > > school education (specially through traditional evaluation sist=
em).
> > > > >
> > > > > To be in school is not something one can choose many times. Chi=
ldren
> > > > > have to be in schools constrained by laws. In other hand, to be=
in
> > > > > school is a childhood wright and some countries' governments
> > > do not care
> > > > > about it because it seems easier to control people who does
> > > not read or
> > > > > write.
> > > > >
> > > > > Writting and reading empower somepeople to decide what is
> > > good or right
> > > > > from what is wrong or bad. Let's remember how Fara=F3s' writers=
(kings'
> > > > > writers), in ancien Egypt, knowing when there would happen an
> > > > > inudation, claim the king to through in the Nile's waters
> > > "his order" to
> > > > > the flood to come - I think even the king knew how to predict w=
hen it
> > > > > would happen, only the fara=F3's writters (escribas), owners of=
the
> > > > > knowledge :)
> > > > >
> > > > > But when ALL students are "together", united, they become stron=
ger and
> > > > > sometimes more powerful than "teachers" (In schools, statistica=
lly,
> > > > > there are much more students than children)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > They just can't survive otherwise (some don't).
> > > > >
> > > > > They know quickly how to act and say things teachers want them =
to say.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to
> > > > > > more powerful (in the relationship), in my view, it is only m=
oral
> > > > > > obligation, genuine interest in others, and deep care can pus=
h
> > > > > them to be
> > > > > > tolerant and receptive to less powerful and dependent. Thus,
> > > > > more powerful
> > > > > > have more freedom and responsibility.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see the progress in my teaching in reducing harm that I'm
> > > doing to my
> > > > > > students... -- although it is up to them to judge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a complex issue and my limited english embaraces me. But m=
e too,
> > > > > when playing teacher/professor role, try to reduce damage and h=
arm to
> > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I like the metaphor used by Ricardo Baqueiro in "Vygotsky and s=
chool
> > > > > learning" (an aproximative traduction of his book title in port=
uguese)
> > > > > when he says new role of teachers now-a-days, since a vygotskia=
n
> > > > > perspective, is something like a "trafic policiman" (trafic
> > > cop) trying
> > > > > to avoid colision of different meaning utterances and cultural
> > > > > determined perceptions and values.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eugene
> > > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > > Eugene Matusov
> > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > University of Delaware
> > > > > > Newark, DE 19716
> > > > > > Office (302) 831-1266
> > > > > > Fax (302) 831-4445
> > > > > > email ematusov who-is-at udel.edu
> > > > > > Website http://ematusov.eds.udel.edu/
> > > > > > -------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Ricardo Ottoni [mailto:rjapias@ibm.net]
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 4:02 PM
> > > > > > > To: xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > Subject: rules of the game
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm only a master student...
> > > > > > > So, consider my unpretentious deposition.
> > > > > > > But I'm a regular professor in a university and I believe I=
can
> > > > > > > feel and see things since two perspectives: from the perspe=
ctive
> > > > > > > of role-student and from role-professor/teacher.
> > > > > > > I do not think academic (doctoral/master) students expect
> > > to change
> > > > > > > the world using a thousand of words... This sounds an ingen=
uos
> > > > > > > point of view.
> > > > > > > I understand that PHDs teachers (not every one - of
> > > course)use their
> > > > > > > "power",legitimated by assimetric power relations in Educat=
ion, to
> > > > > > > control "new" knowledge construction, to constrain
> > > students to "watch"
> > > > > > > and "see" things guided by their traditional teoric
> > > references over
> > > > > > > witch the line of research they advocate are sitting on.
> > > > > > > And a "drama" (conflict) rises when in a line of research s=
omeone
> > > > > > > with no traditional legitimation (titled)proposes the use o=
f
> > > > > some other
> > > > > > > "diferent" teoric reference to approach an issue. Of course=
-
> > > > > I think -
> > > > > > > this is a political and simbolic action (or better,
> > > activity) like a
> > > > > > > jew and a cristian trying to explain Christ's life and
> > > significatiom
> > > > > > > to their different cultures. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who =
is more
> > > > > > > "developed" that the other? How give own space to so
> > > > > different ponts of
> > > > > > > view about a common "object"? Their relation to the "object=
"
> > > > > necessarily
> > > > > > > will be mediated by their culture, their different way of
> > > thinking the
> > > > > > > world and they themselves.
> > > > > > > Tolerance is the keyword. But wich group is motivated to
> > > tolerate an
> > > > > > > "invasion" like that? Wich group has more power or space
> > > in academic
> > > > > > > knowlwedge? Who rules whom? Witch group governs Other actio=
n?
> > > > > > > Globalization X Cultural Diversity
> > > > > > > MCDonald's X Jhihard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why give peace a chance is so difficult? What peace means?
> > > > > > > Who has the truth?
> > > > > > > Only one God and one flock of sheep or politeism (many
> > > gods and many
> > > > > > > different flocks of sheeps)?
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >