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Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
On 10 April 2013 14:44, Christine Schweighart <schweighartc@gmail.com>wrote:
> ...
>
> Robins can be amazing , Huw, one came up to within 20cm of my hands
> yesterday - it was looking right up at me ( so I thought), but it's other
> eye was looking for worms as I was digging. This took me by surprise -
> aesthetic experience often has surprise?- anyway - the robin was quite sure
> of itself and not 'tame' or 'domesticated', any more than I on my
> allotment was 'tamed' or domesticated by the robin.
> Christine.
>
>
I think you have some of my gist of *just*. Don't forget the work-rate
too! :)
I think the humble robin is good mediator for explaining British culture to
civilized Europeans.
Best,
Huw
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On 10 April 2013 02:26, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <anamshane@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is not
> > > "detached" from the actual concept of the horse!
> > > Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is still
> > > imagined!
> > >
> > >
> > The play affords the awareness of the idea as distinct from the thing(s)
> > themselves. Such a distinction is considered necessary prior to
> > formulating an explicit conception of them.
> >
> >
> > > But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a
> > > Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can
> even
> > > be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child.
> > >
> > >
> > Not, if I recall correctly, according to Vygotsky. They need to have
> some
> > "fit for purpose", a teacup may already have its purpose assigned which
> > would conflict. But fluidity of rules is an ingredient in play.
> >
> >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Ana
> > > ____________________________________
> > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > Associate Professor of Education
> > > Chestnut Hill College
> > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > shaneam@chc.edu
> > > Phone: 267-334-2905
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> *From the OED: *
> > > >> *
> > > >> *
> > > >>
> > > >> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed,
> forming
> > > the
> > > >> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a
> > hinge,
> > > or
> > > >> the end of an axle...*
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point
> against
> > > >> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns or is
> > > >> supported.*
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of the
> > > stick.
> > > >
> > > > No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums.
> > > >
> > > > Huw
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > > >>
> > > >> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of
> your
> > > >> interests, Beth.*
> > > >>
> > > >> *
> > > >> *
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <
> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> fulcrum seems OK
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in
> > > relation
> > > >>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the
> prizing
> > > of
> > > >>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can do
> > > with a
> > > >>> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Best,
> > > >>> Huw
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
> > > >>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a
> > > >> meaning
> > > >>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a
> > thing.
> > > >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> > > >>>>> Christine
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> > > >>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной
> точкой
> > > >>> для
> > > >>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический
> > > >>> момент
> > > >>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических
> > > >> структур,
> > > >>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> > > >>>>>> опорная точка-
> > > >>>>>> literally: a point of support
> > > >>>>>> Bella
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> bferholt@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following
> paragraph
> > > >>> from
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is
> best
> > > >>>>>> translated
> > > >>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood
> begins
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>>> be a
> > > >>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules
> > > >> begins
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>>> be
> > > >>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>> child's
> > > >>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it
> > > >> is
> > > >>>> hard
> > > >>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all
> at
> > > >>>> once.
> > > >>>>>> It
> > > >>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning
> > > >> of
> > > >>> a
> > > >>>>>> word)
> > > >>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At
> > > >>> that
> > > >>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a
> pivot
> > > >>> for
> > > >>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the
> basic
> > > >>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's relationship
> to
> > > >>>>> reality
> > > >>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>> radically altered."
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Beth
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > >>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special term
> > > >> for
> > > >>>> it,
> > > >>>>>> but
> > > >>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>> proper
> > > >>>>>>>> term
> > > >>>>>>>> Bella
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
> >
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Yo!!
> > > >>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands
> > > >> on
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> Russian
> > > >>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky
> > > >>>> uses?
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > > >>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife and
> > > >>> two
> > > >>>>>>> glasses
> > > >>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk
> > > >> about
> > > >>> a
> > > >>>>> new
> > > >>>>>>>> bridge
> > > >>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> > > >>>>> holders"
> > > >>>>>>> or
> > > >>>>>>>>>> something else?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
> > > >>> they
> > > >>>> do
> > > >>>>>> not
> > > >>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
> > > >>>> conversation.
> > > >>>>>> In
> > > >>>>>>>>> other
> > > >>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically.
> > > >>> In
> > > >>>>>>>> metaphor,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> > > >>>>> concept,
> > > >>>>>>>> etc.)
> > > >>>>>>>>> by
> > > >>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you,
> > > >> imagine
> > > >>>>> what
> > > >>>>>>>> could
> > > >>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> > > >>>>>>>> possibilities!
> > > >>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> > > >>>>> playing
> > > >>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
> > > >>>>> pillow
> > > >>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>> my
> > > >>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot -
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>> holder)
> > > >>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the
> > > >> place
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>>>>> images
> > > >>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
> > > >>>>> meaning
> > > >>>>>>>>> "ABOUT"
> > > >>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning
> > > >>> is
> > > >>>>>>> "hinged"
> > > >>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the object.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana
> > > >>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> > > >>> bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>>>> stick
> > > >>>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think
> > > >> is a
> > > >>>>>> better
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> translation??
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier
> > > >> was
> > > >>>>>> chosen
> > > >>>>>>>> -- )
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> School of Education
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> > > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> > > >>>>>>> School of Education
> > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > >>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > >>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>>> _____
> > > >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > >>>> __________________________________________
> > > >>>> _____
> > > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> __________________________________________
> > > >>> _____
> > > >>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>
> > > >> __________________________________________
> > > >> _____
> > > >> xmca mailing list
> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
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> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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> > _____
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> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
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