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Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
On 10 April 2013 02:26, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <anamshane@gmail.com> wrote:
> The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is not
> "detached" from the actual concept of the horse!
> Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is still
> imagined!
>
>
The play affords the awareness of the idea as distinct from the thing(s)
themselves. Such a distinction is considered necessary prior to
formulating an explicit conception of them.
> But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a
> Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can even
> be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child.
>
>
Not, if I recall correctly, according to Vygotsky. They need to have some
"fit for purpose", a teacup may already have its purpose assigned which
would conflict. But fluidity of rules is an ingredient in play.
> What do you think?
>
> Ana
> ____________________________________
> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> Associate Professor of Education
> Chestnut Hill College
> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> shaneam@chc.edu
> Phone: 267-334-2905
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> *From the OED: *
> >> *
> >> *
> >>
> >> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed, forming
> the
> >> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a hinge,
> or
> >> the end of an axle...*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point against
> >> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns or is
> >> supported.*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of the
> stick.
> >
> > No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of your
> >> interests, Beth.*
> >>
> >> *
> >> *
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> fulcrum seems OK
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
> >>>
> >>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in
> relation
> >>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
> >>>
> >>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the prizing
> of
> >>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can do
> with a
> >>> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Huw
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
> >>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a
> >> meaning
> >>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a thing.
> >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> >>>>> Christine
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> >>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной точкой
> >>> для
> >>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический
> >>> момент
> >>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических
> >> структур,
> >>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> >>>>>> опорная точка-
> >>>>>> literally: a point of support
> >>>>>> Bella
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following paragraph
> >>> from
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is best
> >>>>>> translated
> >>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood begins
> >>> to
> >>>>> be a
> >>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules
> >> begins
> >>> to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of
> >> the
> >>>>>> child's
> >>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it
> >> is
> >>>> hard
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all at
> >>>> once.
> >>>>>> It
> >>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning
> >> of
> >>> a
> >>>>>> word)
> >>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At
> >>> that
> >>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a pivot
> >>> for
> >>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the basic
> >>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's relationship to
> >>>>> reality
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> radically altered."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Beth
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> >>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special term
> >> for
> >>>> it,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be
> >> a
> >>>>> proper
> >>>>>>>> term
> >>>>>>>> Bella
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yo!!
> >>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands
> >> on
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> Russian
> >>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky
> >>>> uses?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> >>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife and
> >>> two
> >>>>>>> glasses
> >>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk
> >> about
> >>> a
> >>>>> new
> >>>>>>>> bridge
> >>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> >>>>> holders"
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>> something else?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
> >>> they
> >>>> do
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
> >>>> conversation.
> >>>>>> In
> >>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically.
> >>> In
> >>>>>>>> metaphor,
> >>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> >>>>> concept,
> >>>>>>>> etc.)
> >>>>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name.
> >>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you,
> >> imagine
> >>>>> what
> >>>>>>>> could
> >>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> >>>>>>>> possibilities!
> >>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> >>>>> playing
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
> >>>>> pillow
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot -
> >> a
> >>>>>> holder)
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the
> >> place
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>> images
> >>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
> >>>>> meaning
> >>>>>>>>> "ABOUT"
> >>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> >>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning
> >>> is
> >>>>>>> "hinged"
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> the object.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Ana
> >>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> >>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> >>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
> >>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College
> >>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu
> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> >>> bferholt@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish
> >>> the
> >>>>>> stick
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think
> >> is a
> >>>>>> better
> >>>>>>>>>>> translation??
> >>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier
> >> was
> >>>>>> chosen
> >>>>>>>> -- )
> >>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Beth
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> >>>>>>>>>>> School of Education
> >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> >>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> _____
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> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> _____
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> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> _____
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> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> _____
> >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> >>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> >>>>>>> School of Education
> >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>>>> _____
> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >>>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>>> _____
> >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >>>> __________________________________________
> >>>> _____
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