Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

So the distinction makes sense.
Do we need tragedy to stop and think (rework, re-collect, re-turn), though?

Perhaps we need sharp discontinuities to evoke enough disruption to get
emotions activated, to REALLY stop and rethink
large swatches of prior.... ugh...... experience.
mike



On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike, it is this second tradition which Andy's question is addressing. The
> notion of the *tragic soul* and catharis as a particular process of
> *reworking* and *recollecting* or *return*. A circling back over previously
> experienced critical disturbances in the organism-environment relationship.
> Andy is asking if THIS process is explored in either Dewey or Vygotsky, or
> is it an extension of their understanding of aesthetic [intense]
> experiencing ?
>
> Larry
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >From all of the quotations from Russian, there appear to be two
>> divisible "orientations" to the word. One is something like "the unity of
>> the organism and the environment" that is apparently akin to Dilthey'
>> (1833–1911) belief that "human experience (erlebnis, usually >> translated
>> 'lived experience') ---( From Martin's quotation of Dilthey.)
>>
>> The second tradition seems to single out intense experiences associated
>> with critical disturbances in the oranism-environment relationship in
>> either the negative (emphasized by the Doestoevsky in Vasiliuk) or
>> positive
>> (as emphasized by Bella)
>> direction.
>>
>> Is that a reasonable conclusion?
>> mike
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > The only time that I know of that LSV talks about catharsis is in The
>> > Psychology of Art, where he does not talk about perezhivanie, at least
>> in
>> > the 1971 MIT translation; but according to Van der Veer, that
>> translation
>> > only includes about half of what's available in Russian.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On
>> > Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>> > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:09 PM
>> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
>> >
>> > Before moving on to Wundt, and Aristotle I wonder if any xmca
>> > correspondents could help me with this question?
>> >
>> > In my collection of quotes at
>> > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm I was able to
>> > line up Dewey's concept of "an experience" with Vygotsky's concept of
>> > "perezhivanie" on 5 different "dimensions". But there is one aspect of
>> > perezehivanie which I can line up with Freud and Stanislavsky and
>> several
>> > contemporary commentators such as Ferholt, Kravtsov, Vasilyuk, ..., but
>> I
>> > can't find it in Dewey and I don't know where to find it in Vygotsky,
>> and
>> > that is:
>> >
>> > * in order to function in development, perezhivanie must be "recalled"
>> > and "worked over" in "catharsis" which is related to what Mike Cole
>> calls
>> > "prolepsis" or "temporality". Where do I find a clear expression for
>> this
>> > idea in Vygotsky and is it to be found in Dewey?
>> >
>> > Andy
>> >
>> > Larry Purss wrote:
>> > > Mike, Andy, Martin
>> > >
>> > > Mike has summarized the thread to this point in the conversation with
>> > > the
>> > > comment:
>> > >
>> > >  I was also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey. To me he
>> > > stands for the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between
>> > > volkpsychology and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
>> > > Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
>> > > link it somehow to xmca.
>> > >
>> > > Mike, as we link up Dilthey, Dewey, and Vygotsky we seem to be linking
>> > > up *lived experience* which emphasizes the SUBJECTIVE emotional,
>> > > visceral significance of lived experience.
>> > >
>> > > Another central concept is the understanding of *recollection* when
>> > > the impact of the situation on the person summons up the entire lived
>> > > experience of development.
>> > >
>> > > Does Aristotle's notion of *phronesis* as the relationship BETWEEN
>> > > *character* and *application* also offer another source for linking to
>> > > perezhivanie?? My reason for asking is that Gadamer has *recollected*
>> > > lived experience as *flourishing* by returning to Aristotle. Aristotle
>> > > also was exploring notions of the *moral good* and I want to link this
>> > > to page 3 of Andy's notes on perezhivanie. On page 3 Vygotsky uses the
>> > > metaphor of
>> > > *prism* and *refraction* on the environments role and influence on the
>> > > course of development. Vygotsky is suggesting the discipline of
>> > > pedology as a genre OUGHT to always be capable of finding the
>> > > particular *prism* THROUGH WHICH the influence of the environment of
>> > > the environment on the child is REFRACTED. In Vygotsky's own words
>> > pedology:
>> > >
>> > > "OUGHT to be able to find the relationship which exists between the
>> > > child and its environment, the child's emotional experience
>> > > [perezhivanie], in other words how a child BECOMES AWARE of,
>> > > INTERPRETS, [and] EMOTIONALLY RELATES to a certain event. This is such
>> > > a prism which DETERMINES the role and influence of the environment on
>> > > the development of, say, the child's CHARACTER, his psychological
>> > development, etc.
>> > >
>> > > Andy the way you chose to present the multiple shades of meaning of
>> > > perezhivanie [TRANSlated as "lived experience"] through gathering
>> > > together multiple authors each presenting their particular
>> > > understanding of "lived experience" I found helpful in offering a
>> > > deepening clarity of perezhivanie. In conjunction with Dewey's
>> > > understanding of aesthetic experience as a deepening *intensification*
>> > > of lived experience and Dilthey's exploration of lived experience as
>> > > *undergoing*, possible new linkings or avenues of conversation open
>> up.
>> > >
>> > > Fascinating thread which brings to center stage questions of
>> > > subjectivity, intra-subjectivity, inter-subjectivity,
>> > > trans-subjectivity and how these various understandings of
>> > > subjectivity [and character development] link to perezhivanie. I
>> > > appreciate how XMCA is contributing to my personal development.
>> > >
>> > > Larry
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> I expect Ivo just sat that dangling issue there on purpose and I was
>> > >> also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey.  To me he stands for
>> > >> the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between volkpsychology
>> > >> and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
>> > >>
>> > >> Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
>> > >> link it somehow to xmca.
>> > >>
>> > >> mike
>> > >>
>> > >> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Marvellous quote, Martin. None of these issues were discovered
>> > >>> yesterday, it seems.
>> > >>> I had forgotten that a couple of years ago I made up a collection of
>> > >>> quotes from various writers on "Perezhivanie" here:
>> > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<
>> > >>>
>> > >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>
>> > >>
>> > >>> Andy
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Martin Packer wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Sorry, I've just realized I've mistaken Dewey with Dilthey, I
>> > >>>>>> wonder why...
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>> Perhaps because all of this was in Dilthey too.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Dilthey (1833-1911) considered human experience (erlebnis, usually
>> > >>>> translated 'lived experience') to be concrete and historical,
>> > >>>> always
>> > >>>>
>> > >> shaped
>> > >>
>> > >>>> by the context of the past and by the horizon of the future, and he
>> > >>>>
>> > >> argued
>> > >>
>> > >>>> that lived experience is the basis for all understanding. Lived
>> > >>>>
>> > >> experience
>> > >>
>> > >>>> is a direct, immediate, pre-reflective contact with life, an act of
>> > >>>> perceiving in which the person is unified with the object of their
>> > >>>> understanding. It is made up not of static cognitive categories but
>> > >>>> of meaningful unities which are prior to the separation between
>> > >>>> emotion, willing,  with knowing. Lived experience contains within
>> > >>>> it the
>> > >>>>
>> > >> temporality
>> > >>
>> > >>>> of living, and of life itself.
>> > >>>> "That which in the stream of time forms a unity in the present
>> > >>>> because
>> > >>>>
>> > >> it
>> > >>
>> > >>>> has a unitary meaning is the smallest entity which we can designate
>> > >>>> as
>> > >>>>
>> > >> an
>> > >>
>> > >>>> experience" (Dilthey, Collected Works 7, 194)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> "The experience does not stand like an object over against its
>> > >>>> experiencer, but rather its very existence for me is
>> > >>>> undifferentiated
>> > >>>>
>> > >> from
>> > >>
>> > >>>> the whatness which is present for me in it" (Collected Works 7,
>> > >>>> 139)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Martin
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>> ______________________________**____________
>> > >>>> _____
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>> > >>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> > >>> ------------
>> > >>> *Andy Blunden*
>> > >>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> > >>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> > >>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
>> > >>>
>> > >> http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>> > >>
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>> > --
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *Andy Blunden*
>> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
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