Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal (Tool & Sign/Symbol comments)!

[Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>]

David, thanks again for your contribution to the journal ( http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/index.php ) and this contribution to the discussion. 


I believe we still have plenty of time to continue our scholarly argument on the pages of some scholarly publication outlet. In the meantime, I have just a couple of factual remarks worth considering.


1. For  "benign forgery" all credits go to the allegedly translator of Tool and Sign from English into Russian (if his testimony is to be trusted; I have no reasons not to trust it), 
Elkhonon Goldberg, a neuroscientist and bestselling author. Please see the text:  
http://books.google.ca/books?id=9NEN80chkT8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=benign%20forgery&f=false

Full reference: 
Goldberg, E. (2005). The wisdom paradox: How your mind can grow stronger as your brain grows older. New York: Gotham books.
Page 99

2. Textual analysis of the parallel repeated loci in the Russian text suggest that this is a translation from English. 
Let us discuss this analysis, and this might lead us somewhere. At least we will have fairly solid grounds for rational and argumentative solution of the "chicken and egg" problem of 'Tool and Sign'.
For comparative discourse analysis of a repeated fragment in the Russian text in relation to its English prototype please see:
Yasnitsky, A. (2011). "I Wish You Knew From What Stray Matter...": Identifying the set of Vygotsky's major oeuvre and determining the chronology of their composition. 
PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 1-52 (In Russian)
http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.pdf
Table 5,  page 28 and discussion - page 29

3. Mecacci might consider bibliography published in Thinking and Speech fully authorial, but I do not. The reasons:
- Vygotsky's closest collaborators names are misspelt: "Lur'ya" instead of "Luriya" -- 3 (three!) times, "Birnbaum" instead of "Birenbaum" (1 time).
- numerous discrepancies between this bibliography and Vygotsky's authorial bibliographies prepared during his lifetime
(see Table 1, pp. 6-7 in 
Yasnitsky, A. (2011). "I Wish You Knew From What Stray Matter...": Identifying the set of Vygotsky's major oeuvre and determining the chronology of their composition. 
PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 1-52 (In Russian)
http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.pdf

4. Vygotsky's letter of June 12, 1931, to Luria indeed refers to an "article on practical intellect for America". Were it a reference to Tool and Sign, it might be interesting to see 
how Vygotsky himself perceived this paper -- i.e. just as a paper on specific research problem: practical intellect -- and compare this perception with how this work is presented these days.
HOWEVER, there is no evidence that this is reference to this work. In early 1930s Vygotsky and Luria had a number of text intended for publication in America. We know about:
- a paper on thinking in schizophrenia that came out in English in 1934 in translation of J. Kasanin
- another paper mentioned in a couple of papers of 1931 with reference to Kasanin's letter
- journal Character and Personality in early 1930s announced that two papers by Vygotsky were scheduled to come out. The titles are:  "Comparative psychology of the
child" & "Strong memory and the structure of personality". Neither was actually published, in this journal at least

These are just some references that give some idea of Vygotsky and Luria's enthusiasm about publishing abroad. 
Therefore, the reference to  an "article on practical intellect for America" is not sufficient  evidence that "Tool and Sign" was known to or written by Vygotsky.
In addition, the eclecticism and uncritical mixture of seemingly contradictory terminology casts some doubt on the integrity, authenticity, and reliability of this source as Vygotsky's work.
Not to mention the claim of it being one of the most important of Vygotsky's works.

Best,
Anton


________________________________
 From: David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>
To: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; Culture ActivityeXtended Mind <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 9:22:26 AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal (Tool & Sign/Symbol comments)!
 

I hope that everybody who is really interested in Vygotsky will not be distracted by bells and whistles (e.g. discussions of what unknown genius in the translation department might have inadvertantly originated Vygotsky's greatest concepts, or to what extent Vygotsky's brilliance is merely reflected light from men like Kurt Lewin--let it be said that Lewin, on the basis of a short acquaintance, considered Vygotsky the founder of a very significant psychological movement indeed). I hope that everybody who wants to know the facts will take a look at the evidence.
 
Anton's great strength is evidence. As I said in my own contribution to the special issue, I think the way he interprets the evidence is quite wrong. But the near word for word repetitions in Tool and Sign do need to be explained: the repetitions (which are so obvious as to have been largely cut in the English version) are an indubitable fact. These repetitions are either authorial or they are editorial, and if editorial, then Anton is right in saying the text is corrupt.
 
I think they are authorial. Vygotsky was by all accounts a great speaker, and when we read him we can can hear a voice that is constantly reformulating, sometimes repeating word for word (e.g. the middle of Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech which does repeat almost verbatim the beginning of Chapter One). 
 
Anton thinks they are editorial. Despite his rather unfortunate love of strong language (e.g. "benign fake" and "utterly derivative), Anton has good grounds to think this. Just as there are many examples of authorial repetiton in Vygotsky, there are many hundreds of examples of editorial interjections and emendation, and these are very well documented in the article by Meccaci and Yasnitsky. 
 
For example the paragraphing we see in Chapter One of Thinking and Speech is entirely an invention of the editors in the 1950s and does not appear in the 1934 edition at all--Chapter One is simply two absolutely massive paragraphs, apparently dictated in Vygotsky's dying breaths. For me, this suggests that the verbatim repetition we find at the beginning of Chapter One is authorial, and similar repetitions in "Tool and Sign" may also be authorial. But I am quite willing to consider the not so remote, nay even familiar, possibility that I may be mistaken.
 
I think that there are two important pieces of evidence that Anton overlooks when he says that we do not have any evidence that Vygotsky was aware of the manuscript of Tool and Sign. The first is the bibliography to the 1934 edition of Thinking and Speech which Meccaci considers fully authorial. Here the manuscript of Tool and Sign is clearly listed by name. This book was, of course, published after Vygotsky's death, but if Anton thinks that the addition to the bibliography was made by others, he might offer us a plausible theory as to why this might have been done. 
 
The second piece of evidence that Vygotsky knew about the manuscript in Russian and in English is a letter to A.R. Luria dated June 12 1931 in which he discusses translation fees with Luria and then asks "By the way, where is the article on practical intellect for America? Gita Vasil'evna [Birnbaum] does not have it, I asked her." This seems to me, and to the editors of the letters. to be a reference to Chapter One of 'Tool and Sign". (See JREEP, 45 [2] p. 36.)
 
I think the biggest disagreement I have with Anton, though, is over the relative importance of this work. I still find it a little naive of him to imagine that failure to publish a work is evidence that the author thinks it unimportant. Perhaps it is testimony to his own very successful, but relatively young, publishing career. If so, I only hope it will last.
 
David Kellogg
Hankuk University of Foreign Studies

 
 
 

--- On Fri, 3/23/12, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com> wrote:


>From: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal (Tool & Sign/Symbol comments)!
>To: "larry smolucha" <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>, "Activity eXtended Mind Culture" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>Date: Friday, March 23, 2012, 5:34 AM
>
>
>Some comments on Tool and Sign, first published in Russian in 1984, and in English in 1994:
>
>
>1. No diagrams whatsoever in the Russian publication of 1984 can be found.
>
>
>2. We do not know what Vygotsky was -- or was not pushing -- since we have NO evidence that he was aware of the existence of this text, whether under the title "Tool and sign" or "Tool and symbol" or any other else. For the list of all half dozen titles or so under which the text was published see: http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.pdf , table 3, page 22
>
>3. The claim is made 
>(a) on the basis of analysis of Vygotsky's own autobiographies and bibliographies that he prepared himself: 
>- the author did not consider the work later published as Tool and Sign/Symbol among his major works
>
>
>(b) on the basis of the
 language of the English text: 
>- the text could not have been finished by 1930, and, -- due to highly eclectic mixture of "reactological"/"reflexological" (Vygotsky's mechanistic period of "instrumental psychology" of 1920s) and, on the other hand, "systemic" notions (Vygotsky's period of 1930s, radically different from the period of the 1920s) -- the English text was somewhat mechanically augmented by somebody else with several paragraphs of the later period here and there
>
>
>(c) on the basis of  testimony of a witness, Russian text structure, specifically, numerous almost verbatim repetitions, and linguistic features of these repetitions:
>
>- the Russian text is a second translation from English and results from unprofessional editorial combination of the translated texts of two (or more) translators 
>
>
>Last note: not all Vygotsky's works were finished and actually published by their author, which indeed happened
 from time to time in the history of science.
>
>However: the scope and the graveness of editorial interventions into the text raise pretty serious concerns about these texts authenticity and reliability.
>
>For discussion please see:
>
>van der Veer, R. & Yasnitsky, A. (2011). Vygotsky in English: What still needs to be done [html && pdf]. Integrative Psychological and Behavioral Science, 45(4), 475-493; DOI: 10.1007/s12124-011-9172-9
>
>http://www.springerlink.com/content/278j5025767m2263/fulltext.html OR
>
>http://www.springerlink.com/content/278j5025767m2263/fulltext.pdf
>
>
>For examples of editorial interventions see:
>Mecacci, L., & Yasnitsky, A. (2011). Editorial Changes in the Three Russian Editions of Vygotsky's
 Thinking and Speech (1934, 1956, 1982): Towards Authoritative and Ultimate English Translation of the Book. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 159-187
>http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a5/2011n4a5.pdf ;
>
>
>AND
>
>
>Zavershneva, E., & Osipov, M. E. (2010). Osnovnye popravki k tekstu "Istoricheskij smysl psikhologicheskogo krizisa", opublikovannomu v sobranii sochinenij L.S. Vygotskogo (1982-1984) [Main editorial interventions in the text of "Historical meaning of psychological crisis" published in the collected works of L.S. Vygotsky (1982-1984)]. Voprosy psikhologii(1), 92-102.
>
>(This publication is unfortunately not available online either in English--no translation exists--or in the original, in Russian).
>
>
>AY
>
>
>P.S. 
>For discourse analysis of a repeated fragment in the Russian text
 see:
>Yasnitsky, A. (2011). "I Wish You Knew From What Stray Matter...": Identifying the set of Vygotsky's major oeuvre and determining the chronology of their composition. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 1-52 (In Russian)
>http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.pdf
>Table 5, page 28
>
>For the representation of the structural features of the Russian/English texts and the schematic visualization of all repeated fragments see:
>Kellogg, D. & Yasnitsky, A. (2011). The differences between the Russian and English texts of Tool and Symbol in Child Development. Supplementary and analytic materials. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 98-158
>http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a4/2011n4a4.pdf
>Figures 1 and 2, pp. 101
 and 102 respectively; the rest might be of interest, too.
>
>For a relatively brief summary of the findings on the chronology of Vygotsky's main works composition and their relative importance to the author see:
>Yasnitsky, A. (2011). The Vygotsky That We (Do Not) Know: Vygotsky’s Main Works and the Chronology of their Composition. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 53-61
>http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.1.pdf
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>
>To: the_yasya@yahoo.com 
>Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 12:00:36
 AM
>Subject: RE: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>
>
>
>In Mind and Society p.54  Figure 4 looks like this
>
>                                                Mediated Activity     
>
>
>                                         Sign                        Tool
>
>Is this diagram in the Vygotsky text in Russian - in Tool and Symbol 1930?
>
>If so, is the claim being made that Vygotsky did not put this Figure in the text (or
>use it as an illustration)?
>
>By the way it is my understanding that none of George Herbert Mead's books were
>written
 by him, they are all lecture notes that his students took.
>
>It is not surprising to me that Vygotsky texts are not all in finished form as written by the
>original author.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:25:31 -0700
>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking    discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; ablunden@mira.net; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> CC: 
>> 
>> I guess presently the chapter can be found at scribd...
>> 
>> 
>> Right, here it is: http://www.scribd.com/doc/79482780/Yasnitsky-2011-Lev-Vygotsky-Philologist-and-Defectologist-Sociointellectual-Biography
>> 
>> 
>> AY
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>>  From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> To: ablunden@mira.net; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
>> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:12:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>> 
>> How about sending around a manuscript of your article, Anton? So that the
>> ideas get wide dissemination and discussion.
>> 
>> mike
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> 
>> > OK, so let me summarise, Anton.
>> > (1) You say that the central place of mediation by symbols and tools in
>> > the development
 of human consciousness is something introduced by some
>> > anonymous uncredited writer.
>> > (2) I am well aware of the notions of unit of analysis, situation and
>> > Gestalt used by the Gestaltists you mention and I find them quite inferior
>> > to the notions I have learnt from who I thought was Vygotsky, so I have
>> > another anonymous uncredited writer to thank for this.
>> > (3) If you are saying that Vygotsky did not read German philosophy till
>> > near the end of his life if at all, I am inclined to agree. Whoever it was
>> > that I have been reading seem to have brilliantly extracted these insights
>> > from reading Marx and discussions with 20th century writers.
>> >
>> > Andy
>> > Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
>> >
>> >> Let's put somewhat aside the question if anybody can actually *discover*
>> >> an *idea* or a
 *concept*: I tend to think that we rather *construct* and
>> >> *introduce* them, like any other neologisms. Anyway, this is just a remark
>> >> aside, let's get straight to the matter.
>> >>
>> >> I need to think if Vygotsky in fact ever said anything on "mediated
>> >> action" (if anybody is aware of specific locus in any Vygotsky's text where
>> >> he actually says "mediated action" I would greatly appreciate the reference
>> >> to the source).
>> >> As to the other two, I am inclined to look towards the Gestaltists,
>> >> primarily Kurt Koffka along with such peripheral participants and
>> >> fellow-tavellers of Gestaltpsychologie movement as Kurt Lewin and Kurt
>> >> Goldstein as the guys who approximately one hundred seventeen times better
>> >> and way earlier expressed pretty much the same ideas, but in
 slightly
>> >> different terms than Vygotsky vaguely did with his "unit of analysis" and
>> >> "social situation of development". I am not sure,  but I guess I briefly
>> >> suggested this here:
>> >>
>> >> Yasnitsky, A. (2011). Lev Vygotsky: Philologist and Defectologist, A
>> >> Socio-intellectual Biography. In Pickren, W., Dewsbury, D., & Wertheimer,
>> >> M. (Eds.). Portraits of Pioneers in Developmental Psychology, (Vol. 7, pp.
>> >> 109-134).
>> >>
>> >> Vygotsky, in turn, only started learning from the great Germans
>> >> (Americans, Jews, etc.) when he died.
>> >> Unfortunately, though, I am not so sure that these ideas have in fact
>> >> revolutionized psychology, at least so as long as mainstream (i.e.,
>> >> empirical, North American, ahistorical, non-cumulative, reductionist,
 etc.)
>> >> psychology is concerned.
>> >>
>> >> Anton
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> >> ------------
>> >> *From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>> >> *To:* Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
>> >> Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:43:14 PM
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groudbreaking
>> >> discoveries in PsyAnima,
 Dubna Psychological Journal!
>> >>
>> >> So Anton, to whom should we be attributing ideas like "unit of
>> >> analysis", "social situation of development", "mediated action" which
>> >> have revolutionised psychology, and we have been thinking were
>> >> discoveries of Vygotsky? Is there someone else who should be credited?
>> >>
>> >> Andy
>> >>
>> >> Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
>> >> > Indeed, thanks a lot to all those researchers, editors, translators,
>> >> and other volunteers and enthusiasts who made this -- and will make several
>> >> forthcoming  -- journal issues possible!!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > As to Vygotsky's archives, well, it is a little bit different. For
>> >> instance, as one paper argues, on the contrary, archival materials of one
>> >>
 of arguably Vygotsky's works were NOT preserved, and the Russian text of
>> >> the work was blatantly retranslated (or just translated) into Russian from
>> >> English (this was a much later copy that actually WAS preserved, or, for
>> >> that matter, was NOT preserved either, but was "reconstructed" some time in
>> >> the 1950s or 1960s).
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Yet again, as we know, the manuscript of yet another work, commonly
>> >> believed to be a central work of Vygotsky, was NOT preserved either. The
>> >> same holds for yet another allegedly most important Vygotsky's book.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > So, in sum, I would not be that thankful to those who have been in
>> >> charge of keeping Vygotsky's archival stuff  alive and, for that matter,
>> >> accessible.
>>
 >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Anton
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ______________________________**__
>> >> >  From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
>> >> > To: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com <mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>>;
>> >> "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:
>> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> >> > Cc: Alexey Kuznetsov <alexey.math@gmail.com <mailto:
>> >> alexey.math@gmail.com>**>; Ющенкова Дарья Викторовна <
>> >> dashulya-psy@mail.ru <mailto:dashulya-psy@mail.ru>>**; Anton Yasnitsky <
>> >> anton.yasnitsky@gmail.com <mailto:anton.yasnitsky@gmail.**com<anton.yasnitsky@gmail.com>>>;
>> >> Мещеряков Борис Гурьевич <borlogic@yahoo.com <mailto:borlogic@yahoo.com>>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012
 11:04:02 AM
>> >> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groudbreaking
>> >> discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>> >> > >
>> >> > Thanks to all who carried out this work. Thanks also to those who kept
>> >> the archival materials alive.
>> >> > mike
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2012/3/21 Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com <mailto:
>> >> the_yasya@yahoo.com>>
>> >> >
>> >> > A special issue of PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological issue has been
>> >> released lately. This thematic multilingual
 issue combined a few studies on
>> >> textology, chronology and historical development of  Vygotsky's works.
>> >> Several highlights include:
>> >> > >> - first ever rigorous historical reconstruction of the list of
>> >> Vygotsky's major works and the chronology of their composition
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - the sensational finding: Vygotsky never wrote the "History of
>> >> development of higher mental (psychological) functions" and "Tool and
>> >> symbol (sign)" the way we know these texts in Russian now
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - a discussion of Vygotsky's " Tool and Sign" (alias "Tool and Sign"),
>> >> i.e. the first half of what we all know as "Mind and Society" (1978,
>> >> chapters 1-4): was Russian text translated from the English one, or the
>> >> English text translated from
 Russian one, or both?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - numerous fakes and falsifications in Vygotsky's various published
>> >> works & the problem of reliability: is it the Vygotsky that we know or
>> >> rather -- the Vygotsky that we DO NOT know?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - full list of editorial interventions in the three editions of
>> >> Vygotsky's "Thinking and speech" of 1934, 1956, & 1982
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - a historical, first ever republication of early Vygotsky's articles
>> >> on art, theatre and literature of 1922: the unknown Vygotsky of his Gomel'
>> >> period (1917-1924)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> All these and some other materials, in Russian, English, Portuguese,
>> >> and French are available FREE, 24/7 online @ http://www.psyanima.ru/**
>> >> journal/2011/4/index.php<http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/index.php>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The editorial team are presently considering publishing a follow-up
>> >> issue of the journal that would build on these studies, so any
>> >> >> queries, comments, suggestions, and even paper proposals (in virtually
>> >> any language and of virtually any length) will be greatly appreciated!
>> >> >> ______________________________**____________
>> >> >> _____
>> >> >> xmca mailing list
>> >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   > ______________________________**____________
>> >> > _____
>> >> > xmca mailing list
>> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> --
>> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> >> ------------
>> >> *Andy Blunden*
>> >> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>> >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>> >> Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/**product/1608461459/<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> > --
>> > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> > ------------
>> > *Andy Blunden*
>> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> > Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/**product/1608461459/<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/>
>> >
>> > ______________________________**____________
>> > _____
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> >
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>__________________________________________
>_____
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca