Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal (just choose your right ISM and become and IST)!

[Peter Feigenbaum <pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu>]

Colleagues,

I would like to interject into this
discussion (what I hope will be) a helpful comment.  From the perspective
of discourse analysis as espoused by Bakhtin, every utterance is a *response*
to some previous utterance. It serves primarily as a *reflection* upon
another person's utterance and thought. In discussing the structure of
inner speech thinking, Vygotsky arrives at a similar notion: every utterance
of inner speech is a *predicate* that refers back to some idea already
held in consciousness. (In typical conversation, ideas get into consciousness
when one is listening to the words of others). So it should come as no
surprise that Vygotsky's writings and ideas can be construed as consisting
largely of the words and ideas of other great thinkers that preceded him.


On the other hand, every utterance also
has the potential to point forward toward a new topic. Competent speakers
not only produce utterances that meet the cultural obligation of responding
to what went before, but they also have the opportunity to fashion their
responses so that they also *initiate* new ideas and move the conversation
in new directions. It is this aspect of speech--the proactive, future-oriented,
behavior-regulating aspect of speech--that we should look to when we are
assessing what kind of intellectual mark a person makes upon the world
of ideas. To know whether Vygotsky was a Marxist, for example, the evidence
we should look for is how he used the ideas of Marx and Engels to put psychology
on a new foundation.

My two cents. 

Peter

Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
Associate Director of Institutional Research
Fordham University
Thebaud Hall-202
Bronx, NY 10458

Phone: (718) 817-2243
Fax: (718) 817-3203
e-mail: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu



From:      
 Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>
To:      
 "ablunden@mira.net"
<ablunden@mira.net>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date:      
 03/23/2012 10:41 AM
Subject:    
   Re: [xmca] Special
issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking        discoveries
in PsyAnima,        Dubna Psychological Journal
(just choose your right ISM and become and        IST)!
Sent by:    
   xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu

---

Andy, I personally do not find this question meaningful.


Thus, I would extend your question into a series of further similar questions:

How many of us, present here, would consider ourselves as 

-Marxist?

-Vygotskyist?

-Deweyist?

-Spinozist?

-Engelsist?

-Trotskyist?

-Leninist?

-Lewinist?

-Koffkist?

-Gestaltist?

-cultural-historicist?

-cultural-activity-theorist?

-mechanicist?

-reductionist?

-holicist?

-etc.


Anyone is invited to ponder over this list and choose a right combination
of labels of ISTs that would best characterize her or his scientific credo.


The purpose of this list is to show that although we might be sympathetic
with some author(s) and use his(their) legacy, 

it is virtually never productive, imho, to restrict one's work to a single
"ist" influence.


Not to mention the fact that labeling more often than not does no good,
any time, any place ;)...


Cheers,

AY


PS As to the essence of Andy's question: yes, Vygotsky was at times fooling
around with Marx and Engles's ideas and quotes, like with a bunch of many
other,

from lots of different other sources. Like I previously said: Vygotsky
was utterly derivative, indeed :)...



________________________________
 From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 10:13:39 AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking
discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal (link reminder)!
 
Anton,
I now have a PDF of your Vygotsky sociointellectual biography article.
Could I just ask you one question? In your opinion, did Vygotsky 
consider himself a Marxist?

Andy

Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> Oh, yes, and for those, who lost or missed the link to the special
issue web site, here it is with all multilingual texts in English, Russian,
Portuguese, and French, including the first ever publication of Vygotsky's
rarest materials of 1922 :) --
>
>
> http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/index.php
>
>
> :)
>
> AY
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>
> To: larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>; Activity eXtended
Mind Culture <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 8:34:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking
discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal (Tool & Sign/Symbol
comments)!
>  
> Some comments on Tool and Sign, first published in Russian in 1984,
and in English in 1994:
>
>
> 1. No diagrams whatsoever in the Russian publication of 1984 can be
found.
>
>
> 2. We do not know what Vygotsky was -- or was not pushing -- since
we have NO evidence that he was aware of the existence of this text, whether
under the title "Tool and sign" or "Tool and symbol"
or any other else. For the list of all half dozen titles or so under which
the text was published see: http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.pdf
, table 3, page 22
>
> 3. The claim is made 
> (a) on the basis of analysis of Vygotsky's own autobiographies and
bibliographies that he prepared himself: 
> - the author did not consider the work later published as Tool and
Sign/Symbol among his major works
>
>
> (b) on the basis of the language of the English text: 
> - the text could not have been finished by 1930, and, -- due to highly
eclectic mixture of "reactological"/"reflexological"
(Vygotsky's mechanistic period of "instrumental psychology" of
1920s) and, on the other hand, "systemic" notions (Vygotsky's
period of 1930s, radically different from the period of the 1920s) -- the
English text was somewhat mechanically augmented by somebody else with
several paragraphs of the later period here and there
>
>
> (c) on the basis of  testimony of a witness, Russian text structure,
specifically, numerous almost verbatim repetitions, and linguistic features
of these repetitions:
>
> - the Russian text is a second translation from English and results
from unprofessional editorial combination of the translated texts of two
(or more) translators 
>
>
> Last note: not all Vygotsky's works were finished and actually published
by their author, which indeed happened from time to time in the history
of science.
>
> However: the scope and the graveness of editorial interventions into
the text raise pretty serious concerns about these texts authenticity and
reliability.
>
> For discussion please see:
>
> van der Veer, R. & Yasnitsky, A. (2011). Vygotsky in English:
What still needs to be done [html && pdf]. Integrative Psychological
and Behavioral Science, 45(4), 475-493; DOI: 10.1007/s12124-011-9172-9
>
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/278j5025767m2263/fulltext.html
OR
>
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/278j5025767m2263/fulltext.pdf
>
>
> For examples of editorial interventions see:
> Mecacci, L., & Yasnitsky, A. (2011). Editorial Changes in the
Three Russian Editions of Vygotsky's Thinking and Speech (1934, 1956, 1982):
Towards Authoritative and Ultimate English Translation of the Book. PsyAnima,
Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 159-187
> http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a5/2011n4a5.pdf
>
>
> AND
>
>
> Zavershneva, E., & Osipov, M. E. (2010). Osnovnye popravki k tekstu
"Istoricheskij smysl psikhologicheskogo krizisa", opublikovannomu
v sobranii sochinenij L.S. Vygotskogo (1982-1984) [Main editorial interventions
in the text of "Historical meaning of psychological crisis" published
in the collected works of L.S. Vygotsky (1982-1984)]. Voprosy psikhologii(1),
92-102.
>
> (This publication is unfortunately not available online either in
English--no translation exists--or in the original, in Russian).
>
>
> AY
>
>
> P.S. 
> For discourse analysis of a repeated fragment in the Russian text
see:
> Yasnitsky, A. (2011). "I Wish You Knew From What Stray Matter...":
Identifying the set of Vygotsky's major oeuvre and determining the chronology
of their composition. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 1-52
(In Russian)
> http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.pdf
> Table 5, page 28
>
> For the representation of the structural features of the Russian/English
texts and the schematic visualization of all repeated fragments see:
> Kellogg, D. & Yasnitsky, A. (2011). The differences between the
Russian and English texts of Tool and Symbol in Child Development. Supplementary
and analytic materials. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal, 4(4), 98-158
> http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a4/2011n4a4.pdf
> Figures 1 and 2, pp. 101 and 102 respectively; the rest might be of
interest, too.
>
> For a relatively brief summary of the findings on the chronology of
Vygotsky's main works composition and their relative importance to the
author see:
> Yasnitsky, A. (2011). The Vygotsky That We (Do Not) Know: Vygotsky’s
Main Works and the Chronology of their Composition. PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological
Journal, 4(4), 53-61
> http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/2011n4a1/2011n4a1.1.pdf
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>
> To: the_yasya@yahoo.com 
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 12:00:36 AM
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking
discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>
>
>
> In Mind and Society p.54  Figure 4 looks like this
>
>                   
                     
       Mediated Activity    
>
>
>                   
                     
Sign                   
    Tool
>
> Is this diagram in the Vygotsky text in Russian - in Tool and Symbol
1930?
>
> If so, is the claim being made that Vygotsky did not put this Figure
in the text (or
> use it as an illustration)?
>
> By the way it is my understanding that none of George Herbert Mead's
books were
> written by him, they are all lecture notes that his students took.
>
> It is not surprising to me that Vygotsky texts are not all in finished
form as written by the
> original author.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:25:31 -0700
>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking 
  discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; ablunden@mira.net; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu;
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> CC: 
>>
>> I guess presently the chapter can be found at scribd...
>>
>>
>> Right, here it is: http://www.scribd.com/doc/79482780/Yasnitsky-2011-Lev-Vygotsky-Philologist-and-Defectologist-Sociointellectual-Biography
>>
>>
>> AY
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>   From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> To: ablunden@mira.net; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
>> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:12:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy: groundbreaking
discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>>
>> How about sending around a manuscript of your article, Anton?
So that the
>> ideas get wide dissemination and discussion.
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> OK, so let me summarise, Anton.
>>> (1) You say that the central place of mediation by symbols
and tools in
>>> the development of human consciousness is something introduced
by some
>>> anonymous uncredited writer.
>>> (2) I am well aware of the notions of unit of analysis, situation
and
>>> Gestalt used by the Gestaltists you mention and I find them
quite inferior
>>> to the notions I have learnt from who I thought was Vygotsky,
so I have
>>> another anonymous uncredited writer to thank for this.
>>> (3) If you are saying that Vygotsky did not read German philosophy
till
>>> near the end of his life if at all, I am inclined to agree.
Whoever it was
>>> that I have been reading seem to have brilliantly extracted
these insights
>>> from reading Marx and discussions with 20th century writers.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>> Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> Let's put somewhat aside the question if anybody can actually
*discover*
>>>> an *idea* or a *concept*: I tend to think that we rather
*construct* and
>>>> *introduce* them, like any other neologisms. Anyway, this
is just a remark
>>>> aside, let's get straight to the matter.
>>>>
>>>> I need to think if Vygotsky in fact ever said anything
on "mediated
>>>> action" (if anybody is aware of specific locus in
any Vygotsky's text where
>>>> he actually says "mediated action" I would greatly
appreciate the reference
>>>> to the source).
>>>> As to the other two, I am inclined to look towards the
Gestaltists,
>>>> primarily Kurt Koffka along with such peripheral participants
and
>>>> fellow-tavellers of Gestaltpsychologie movement as Kurt
Lewin and Kurt
>>>> Goldstein as the guys who approximately one hundred seventeen
times better
>>>> and way earlier expressed pretty much the same ideas,
but in slightly
>>>> different terms than Vygotsky vaguely did with his "unit
of analysis" and
>>>> "social situation of development". I am not
sure,  but I guess I briefly
>>>> suggested this here:
>>>>
>>>> Yasnitsky, A. (2011). Lev Vygotsky: Philologist and Defectologist,
A
>>>> Socio-intellectual Biography. In Pickren, W., Dewsbury,
D., & Wertheimer,
>>>> M. (Eds.). Portraits of Pioneers in Developmental Psychology,
(Vol. 7, pp.
>>>> 109-134).
>>>>
>>>> Vygotsky, in turn, only started learning from the great
Germans
>>>> (Americans, Jews, etc.) when he died.
>>>> Unfortunately, though, I am not so sure that these ideas
have in fact
>>>> revolutionized psychology, at least so as long as mainstream
(i.e.,
>>>> empirical, North American, ahistorical, non-cumulative,
reductionist, etc.)
>>>> psychology is concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Anton
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------
>>>> *From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>> *To:* Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
>>>> Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:43:14 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy:
groudbreaking
>>>> discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>>>>
>>>> So Anton, to whom should we be attributing ideas like
"unit of
>>>> analysis", "social situation of development",
"mediated action" which
>>>> have revolutionised psychology, and we have been thinking
were
>>>> discoveries of Vygotsky? Is there someone else who should
be credited?
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>> Indeed, thanks a lot to all those researchers, editors,
translators,
>>>>>          
>>>> and other volunteers and enthusiasts who made this --
and will make several
>>>> forthcoming  -- journal issues possible!!
>>>>        
>>>>> As to Vygotsky's archives, well, it is a little bit
different. For
>>>>>          
>>>> instance, as one paper argues, on the contrary, archival
materials of one
>>>> of arguably Vygotsky's works were NOT preserved, and the
Russian text of
>>>> the work was blatantly retranslated (or just translated)
into Russian from
>>>> English (this was a much later copy that actually WAS
preserved, or, for
>>>> that matter, was NOT preserved either, but was "reconstructed"
some time in
>>>> the 1950s or 1960s).
>>>>        
>>>>> Yet again, as we know, the manuscript of yet another
work, commonly
>>>>>          
>>>> believed to be a central work of Vygotsky, was NOT preserved
either. The
>>>> same holds for yet another allegedly most important Vygotsky's
book.
>>>>        
>>>>> So, in sum, I would not be that thankful to those
who have been in
>>>>>          
>>>> charge of keeping Vygotsky's archival stuff  alive
and, for that matter,
>>>> accessible.
>>>>        
>>>>> Anton
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**__
>>>>>   From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
>>>>> To: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com <mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>>;
>>>>>          
>>>> "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>        
>>>>> Cc: Alexey Kuznetsov <alexey.math@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>>>          
>>>> alexey.math@gmail.com>**>; Ющенкова Дарья
Викторовна <
>>>> dashulya-psy@mail.ru <mailto:dashulya-psy@mail.ru>>**;
Anton Yasnitsky <
>>>> anton.yasnitsky@gmail.com <mailto:anton.yasnitsky@gmail.**com<anton.yasnitsky@gmail.com>>>;
>>>> Мещеряков Борис Гурьевич <borlogic@yahoo.com
<mailto:borlogic@yahoo.com>>
>>>>        
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 11:04:02 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Special issue on Vygotsky's legacy:
groudbreaking
>>>>>          
>>>> discoveries in PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal!
>>>>        
>>>>> Thanks to all who carried out this work. Thanks also
to those who kept
>>>>>          
>>>> the archival materials alive.
>>>>        
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2012/3/21 Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com
<mailto:
>>>>>          
>>>> the_yasya@yahoo.com>>
>>>>        
>>>>> A special issue of PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological issue
has been
>>>>>          
>>>> released lately. This thematic multilingual issue combined
a few studies on
>>>> textology, chronology and historical development of 
Vygotsky's works.
>>>> Several highlights include:
>>>>        
>>>>>>> - first ever rigorous historical reconstruction
of the list of
>>>>>>>             
>>>> Vygotsky's major works and the chronology of their composition
>>>>        
>>>>>> - the sensational finding: Vygotsky never wrote
the "History of
>>>>>>            
>>>> development of higher mental (psychological) functions"
and "Tool and
>>>> symbol (sign)" the way we know these texts in Russian
now
>>>>        
>>>>>> - a discussion of Vygotsky's " Tool and Sign"
(alias "Tool and Sign"),
>>>>>>            
>>>> i.e. the first half of what we all know as "Mind
and Society" (1978,
>>>> chapters 1-4): was Russian text translated from the English
one, or the
>>>> English text translated from Russian one, or both?
>>>>        
>>>>>> - numerous fakes and falsifications in Vygotsky's
various published
>>>>>>            
>>>> works & the problem of reliability: is it the Vygotsky
that we know or
>>>> rather -- the Vygotsky that we DO NOT know?
>>>>        
>>>>>> - full list of editorial interventions in the
three editions of
>>>>>>            
>>>> Vygotsky's "Thinking and speech" of 1934, 1956,
& 1982
>>>>        
>>>>>> - a historical, first ever republication of early
Vygotsky's articles
>>>>>>            
>>>> on art, theatre and literature of 1922: the unknown Vygotsky
of his Gomel'
>>>> period (1917-1924)
>>>>        
>>>>>> All these and some other materials, in Russian,
English, Portuguese,
>>>>>>            
>>>> and French are available FREE, 24/7 online @ http://www.psyanima.ru/**
>>>> journal/2011/4/index.php<http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2011/4/index.php>
>>>>        
>>>>>> The editorial team are presently considering publishing
a follow-up
>>>>>>            
>>>> issue of the journal that would build on these studies,
so any
>>>>        
>>>>>> queries, comments, suggestions, and even paper
proposals (in virtually
>>>>>>            
>>>> any language and of virtually any length) will be greatly
appreciated!
>>>>        
>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    > ______________________________**____________
>>>>>>            
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>>>> Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/**product/1608461459/<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>> ------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>> Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/**product/1608461459/<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**____________
>>> _____
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>
>>>      
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
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>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
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>>    
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
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> xmca mailing list
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>
>
>  

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/

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