Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function"

[Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>]

Andy, you are right
Here is Lurian definition
 higher mental functions are “…*social in origin and complex and
hierarchical in their structure and they all are based on a complex system
of methods and means*...” (Luria, 1973, *The working brain.* page 30).  And
there are enough explanations for each aspect and the fact that they are
based on the lower, natural (that are present in animals too) was well
analysed by LSV (chapter 4 of *Language and Thought)* and Luria.
Everyone can invent new terms, but if you want Vygotsky's concept just take
it as it is.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> I'd like to know from Collette what the actual problem is. If someone
> cannot cope with the concept of higher mental functions because they don't
> know what it means, but suspect that some kind of elitism or
> anthropcentrism is being smuggled in here, I don't think it can be solved
> by the choice of a word for it. It is simply a question of explaining this
> concept of Vygotsky's. If someone is not prepared to listen, then changing
> the name is not going to help. The concept will still remain a mystery.
>
> Collette?
> Andy
>
>
> Rod Parker-Rees wrote:
>
>> I wonder whether there is any way of sidestepping the value system which
>> is attached to HMF by the use of the word 'higher'. This seems to me to
>> bring along Piagetian connotations of progress towards the rarefied air of
>> the snow covered summits of formal operational thinking, away from the
>> 'swampy lowlands' of more parallel, thick processes. 'Thin mental
>> functions' would be no good - but what about 'lean mental functions'?
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Rod
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>]
>> On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd
>> Sent: 13 February 2012 19:47
>> To: Vera John-Steiner; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function"
>>
>> On 13 February 2012 18:17, Vera John-Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I think "mediatory" is a very awkwars term and it requires quite a bit
>>> of knowledge about CHAT. Integrated (see David's note ) psychological
>>> functions may work better, or possibly integrated psychological processes.
>>> V's point was that "higher" psychological functions required the
>>> unification of diverse streams of learning, culture and development.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Though integrated begs the question of how in particular, and doesn't
>> relate clearly to qualitative change.
>>
>> HMF is simple to say and has a certain mystique.  :)
>>
>> Huw
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Vera
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Lloyd" <
>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:53 AM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function"
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13 February 2012 16:21, Colette Murphy <c.a.murphy@qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot for your reasoning. May I just explain that I was worried
>>>> that 'higher psychic function' might sound too abstract and psychological
>>>> for many science educators (including myself). Thus, whilst your suggestion
>>>> makes perfect sense, I fear that it may also suffer from being too abstract
>>>> / psychological for my current purpose. Can you make it more concrete
>>>> perhaps?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well it is more concrete, in the Marxian sense.
>>>
>>> Really, I would say this hinges on your reference to "scientists".   If
>>> they are scientists they should know, or not be shy of knowing, what a
>>> homology (structural comparison) is.  That a term like mediation addresses
>>> the phenomena as a scientific system, whereas 'higher' is indeed abstract
>>> and removed (but familiar from the perspective of other psychological
>>> theories).
>>>
>>> If a term is introduced that is not familiar, then they're atleast made
>>> aware that the subject may deal with unfamiliar things, rather than
>>> assimilating them (in the Piagetian sense) to their current understanding.
>>> So "Higher" may suffice, for some, from an outside perspective but it
>>> points in inappropriate ways.  "Mediatory" is more precise but points to
>>> the unknown, which is also truthful to their understanding.
>>>
>>> Huw
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks a million
>>>
>>>
>>>> Colette
>>>>
>>>> Dr Colette Murphy
>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>> School of Education
>>>> 69 University St
>>>> Queen's University
>>>> Belfast BT7 1HL
>>>>
>>>> tel: 02890975953
>>>>
>>>> "Why is it, in spite of the fact that teaching by pouring in, learning
>>>> by passive absorption, are universally condemned, that they are still so
>>>> entrenched in practice?"
>>>>
>>>>        John Dewey Democracy in Education 1916, Page 46
>>>> ______________________________****__________
>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>>>> Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: 13 February 2012 16:08
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function"
>>>>
>>>> On 13 February 2012 15:57, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>        Colette asked for  a concept  "that it be best
>>>>> read/understood/accepted
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> by
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> educationalists (more specifically, science education researchers) in
>>>>> such a case  it seems that  "Extension of psychological mediatory function"
>>>>> does not fit the context Bella Kotik-.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Because.... ?
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>          On 13 February 2012 12:09, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>             Dear Colette my off-list note returned rejected by your
>>>>>>> server, so:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I use "higher mental functions" or sometimes "higher psychological
>>>>>>> functions", but the first is preferable.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Colette Murphy <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> c.a.murphy@qub.ac.uk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>              Dear All
>>>>>>>> I'd be very interested to hear your views on how to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> edit/reword/rewrite
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> the phrase "higher psychic function" in relation to Vygotsky's CH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that it be best read/understood/accepted by educationalists (more
>>>>>>>> specifically, science education researchers)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps it would be better to use a term that pointed to the > >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> phenomena,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> such as "Extension of psychological mediatory function".  "Higher"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> relates
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> the phenomena to other psychological theories but points away from
>>>>>> the phenomena -- one is left considering why one function is higher than
>>>>>> another whilst embedding the ideas in an (unnecessary) analogical
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> framework
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> of "height = abstraction" or "higher as in high church" in which case
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> one
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> is even further removed from a precise formulation using a > >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> metaphorical
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> frame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm happy to engage off-list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if this query is better treated that way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is clearly on-topic in many ways.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a million
>>>>>>>> Colette
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dr Colette Murphy
>>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>>> School of Education
>>>>>>>> 69 University St
>>>>>>>> Queen's University
>>>>>>>> Belfast BT7 1HL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> tel: 02890975953
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Why is it, in spite of the fact that teaching by pouring in,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> learning
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> by
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> passive absorption, are universally condemned, that they are still
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> so
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> entrenched in practice?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         John Dewey Democracy in Education 1916, Page 46
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>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut ______________________________**
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>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
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-- 
Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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