Re: [xmca] For the musicians

[Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@monash.edu>]

Hi again everyone (Can't seem to get this topic out of my head!)

I was writing about agency and imagination yesterday for a section of my
theoretical framework chapter and then lying in bed this morning it dawned
on me that perhaps this has something to do with my unease at seeing
Jonathon in a monkey suit conducting a real orchestra. When he is conducting
the recording he is creating an imaginary situation. He is imagining that
his movements are having an effect on the players by anticipating the
changes in the music, but in reality it doesn't matter what he actually does
- the recorded music will always sound exactly the same. A real conductor on
the other hand has to imagine what s/he wants the music to sound like and
then work hard to get the musicians to understand and enact this particular
interpretation. Both situations require imagination but in a completely
different way.

In conducting the recording the child is engaging in pretend play (taking on
a role - even though in this case he is acting out this role with
extraordinary skill), however to be a real conductor (and by this I mean the
entire role of a conductor - analysing the score, creating an
interpretation, directing rehearsals, working with sections, and finally
conducting the performance) requires the type of imagination Vygotsky
discusses in 'Imagination and creativity in childhood' (2004), drawing upon
previous experiences and knowledge and combining them in new ways to create
something 'original'. However this cycle of creativity is not complete until
agency is used and the imagined idea is realised in an actual material form
(i.e. the orchestra realises the conductor's interpretation). I don't
believe that when Jonathon is standing in front of a real orchestra he has
engaged in this type of imagination. David's newest message has just come in
while I've been writing this, and as he points out, when a child stands in
front of an orchestra (or indeed anyone else who has not actually rehearsed
them and coached them to perform their own interpretation) then the
orchestra will largely ignore them and play in the way they have rehearsed
with their own conductor. Thus both the agentic and imaginative elements are
gone and the child is left merely waving their arms around with no real
effect, but he can't even PRETEND that he is conducting and controlling the
musicians because he doesn't know what the real-life players in this
real-life situation will actually do in the next microsecond (whereas he did
in the recording) so his actions may not match the sound that actually
appears. This must lead to either frustration (because in this case Jonathon
obviously does understand that his actions are supposed to control the
orchestra, whereas most young children may not), or to him giving up his
agency and resorting to following the orchestra so that his actions match
the sound they are actually producing.

I think this is why the new videos made me feel sad - the child has been
plucked from a totally child-appropriate imaginative situation, and placed
in a real world adult situation that requires imagination in a different way
but that he does not have the agency (the capacity to act) to realise
because he cannot take on the entire real-world role of a real conductor.
Who benefits from this?

Anyway, better get back to the thesis writing. Writing about motives is up
next!!!! I wonder how Jonathon will crop up in my thoughts about this!

Cheers,
Helen

On 27 October 2011 01:47, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All
>
> Or, look at some other You-tube clips about the same child. (Thanks to a
> friend
> who was seeking to answer the question I asked about how we might know more
> about the presence or absence of a TV prompter).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprmkCuyEWo&feature=related
> A short video feature by Sean King (www.seananthonymedia.com) about
> Jonathan
> Okseniuk's debut performance with Chamber Orchestra Kremlin, which took
> place in the Torrance (CA) Arts Center in February 2011.
>
> mike
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Look carefully David and I think he is looking* into himself* a lot of
> the
> > time.  As Steve points out, he is also anticipating what comes next.
> >
> > Also, over centuries we have amazing examples of precosity (?sp) in
> music:
> > would you deny Mozart his first concerto at 7? But I don't know if he was
> > picking his nose as he wrote it...
> >
> > I myself am very musical and it was already apparent by the time i did my
> > Grade 1 exam--and continued. Perhaps I should send you my interpretation
> of
> > some of the slow movements of Beethoven's  sonatoes   :-))  Perhaps this
> is
> > why I was so excited and also fall off my chair at the end when he loses
> his
> > baton. I am already primed.
> >
> > But thank you for your detailed response: we have much to learn from it.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> > On 26 October 2011 04:50, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Any way to find out, David, about the other TV?
> >> mike
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:49 PM, David Kellogg <
> vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > I don't mean to throw cold water on the discussion, but if you observe
> >> the
> >> > boy very carefully, you notice some rather odd things.
> >> >
> >> > His audience (presumably mom and dad) are where the camera is. But for
> >> the
> >> > most part he is not looking in the direction of the audience, even
> when
> >> they
> >> > actually say things.
> >> >
> >> > For the most part, he is looking somewhere to the left of the camera.
> >> > Sometimes he is looking there quite intently.
> >> >
> >> > So I think there is a TV monitor over there somewhere. He is probably
> >> > watching a DVD of a professional performance of the symphony and he is
> >> > imitating the conductor's movements, exaggerating theme here and there
> >> (e.g.
> >> > when he falls off the podium).
> >> >
> >> > This would explain how he manages to anticipate the instruments, and
> it
> >> > also explains why he consistently prompts (e.g.) the strings in a
> >> particular
> >> > place, and why some of his movements appear to be his own, exuberant
> >> > creations (as Ivan perceptively remarked) while others appear to be
> >> those
> >> > from the outside).
> >> >
> >> > Now, I am not raising this observation (which I think is correct) as a
> >> > spoiler, or a dampener, or a hater. To me, the only thing it really
> >> spoils
> >> > is the idea that some musicality is inborn or inherent or culture-free
> >> > (something I am always reminded of when Westerners who I grew up with
> >> cannot
> >> > seem to learn to love Chinese opera the way I do).
> >> >
> >> > Schweder remarks somewhere that three year olds in Orissa are very
> much
> >> > like three year olds in America, while five year olds in Orissa are
> much
> >> > like adults in Orissa and really very little like five year olds in
> >> America.
> >> > I think that this video shows that enculturation can be much more
> direct
> >> and
> >> > immediate (and early and incomplete) than this statement supposes.
> >> >
> >> > I remember reading an article by a recruiter for the Julliard who was
> >> > responsible for scouting out preschoolers of "innate musicality".
> After
> >> many
> >> > years of trying to test for it and interview for it and so on she
> >> concluded
> >> > that there was really no such thing: it's a matter of loving the music
> >> > enough to put up with the grinding and somewhat mindless practice that
> >> > mastering it entails. It's much more romantic to believe in innate
> >> > musicality (and also slightly aristocratic, when you think about it),
> >> but
> >> > there is really no scientific basis at all, not in this tape or any
> >> where
> >> > else that I can see.
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me that understanding the video as an instance of what
> >> Vygotsky
> >> > calls "imitation in a broad sense" (that is, imitation which involves
> an
> >> > imitation of the ideal as well as the real, an understanding of the
> goal
> >> as
> >> > well as an understanding of concrete actions that go into the goal)
> only
> >> > enhances the remarkable sense we get from it (by making it
> >> understandable
> >> > and reproducible and not just worthy of praise and envy).
> >> >
> >> > At the beginning of Vygotsky's essay on the prehistory of writing
> >> (Chapter
> >> > Eight of Mind in Society) Vygotsky complains that when children learn
> to
> >> > read and write we sometimes pretend that when we have taught them the
> >> > alphabet, our job is done "Children are taught to trace out letters
> and
> >> > make words out of them, but they are not taught written language."
> >> Interestingly,
> >> > he continues his critique with a musical metaphor:******
> >> >
> >> > ** **
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "This situation recalls the development of a technical skill such as
> >> > piano-playing: the pupil develops finger dexterity and learns to
> strike
> >> the
> >> > keys while reading music, but he is in no way involved in the essence
> of
> >> the
> >> > music himself." (1978: 105-106)****
> >> >
> >> > ** **
> >>
> >> > I think Vygotsky would, like most people on this list (and certainly
> >> like
> >> > Ivan) say that this is a kid who is deeply involved in the essence of
> >> the
> >> > music. I notice that the daughter in law of the late great Carlo Maria
> >> > Giulani says, in one of the many comments on the video, that the
> little
> >> > boy's gestures suggests to her that the little boy might be a direct
> >> > inheritor of her father in law's tradition. Actually, those words may
> be
> >> > even truer than she supposes.
> >> >
> >> > David Kellogg
> >> > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On *Tue, 10/25/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >> > Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
> >> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:04 AM
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Its those same kinds of observations that evoke the idea of
> >> perezhivanie, I
> >> > suspect,
> >> > Steve.
> >> > mike
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Carol Macdonald <
> carolmacdon@gmail.com
> >> <http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >>
> >> > >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Yes, Steve, that's exactly what he was doing, just like a conductor,
> >> and
> >> > he
> >> > > is THREE!  I have to say I have never sent a "topic" out and got so
> >> many
> >> > > responses.
> >> > > Carol
> >> > >
> >> > > On 25 October 2011 12:59, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stevegabosch@me.com>>
> >>
> >>  > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > My personal experience of the video clip involved ways that
> watching
> >> > the
> >> > > > boy conductor enhanced my experience of this music, which I am
> very
> >> > fond
> >> > > of.
> >> > > >  I found myself reading his motions and listening to the music
> >> through
> >> > > his
> >> > > > ears and body, especially places where he was anticipating changes
> -
> >> > for
> >> > > > example, the way he would increase the agitation of the baton and
> >> his
> >> > > arms
> >> > > > as the music went from soft to loud in some of the great crescendo
> >> > > moments,
> >> > > > seeming to push the music forward and to greater heights with his
> >> own
> >> > > > determination and enthusiasm.  A great reminder to listen to,
> >> > appreciate
> >> > > and
> >> > > > truly feel music - and of the power of anticipation.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - Steve
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi again,
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> I put this link on my facebook page and Gloria Quinones commented
> >> > > "That's
> >> > > >> what I call perezhivanie!" I'd love for you to explain what you
> >> meant
> >> > by
> >> > > >> that comment here Gloria - but it made me think not so much about
> >> the
> >> > > >> perezhivanie of the little boy, but about our perezhivanie as we
> >> > watched
> >> > > >> it.
> >> > > >> As a musician, my previous experiences certainly gave me a unique
> >> > > >> interpretation of what was going on which would not necessarily
> be
> >> > > >> appreciated or understood in the same way by somebody who has
> never
> >> > been
> >> > > >> conducted or tried to conduct an orchestra, yet their own
> >> experiences
> >> > > and
> >> > > >> expertise in other areas of life would no doubt lead to other
> >> equally
> >> > > >> interesting and emotionally stirring responses and
> interpretations.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Whose perezhivanie were you referring to Gloria? The boy's or
> >> yours?
> >> > I'd
> >> > > >> love to hear about other people's perezhivanie (emotional
> >> experience)
> >> > as
> >> > > >> you
> >> > > >> watched it and how it is informed by your previous experiences
> >> (with
> >> > > >> music,
> >> > > >> young children, videoing, having a runny nose in public, dropping
> >> > > things,
> >> > > >> being in hysterics, prodigies, performing etc, etc). What
> resonates
> >> > with
> >> > > >> you
> >> > > >> and why? Maybe this might help us work out what we mean by
> >> > perezhivanie?
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Cheers,
> >> > > >> Helen
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> On 24 October 2011 17:01, Helen Grimmett <
> >> helen.grimmett@monash.edu<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=helen.grimmett@monash.edu
> >
> >>
> >> > >
> >> > > >> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Priceless! It would be fascinating to know the story behind it. I
> >> > could
> >> > > >>> not
> >> > > >>> believe how well he knows the music, and his facial expressions
> in
> >> > the
> >> > > >>> quieter, slower parts are just exquisite. Thanks for sharing
> >> Carol.
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> Cheers,
> >> > > >>> Helen
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> On 24 October 2011 15:30, Carol Macdonald <
> carolmacdon@gmail.com<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >>
> >>  > >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> This little boy is a savant: he actually know the whole
> movement.
> >> > >  Watch
> >> > > >>>> carefully and you will see he is not *following* the music, but
> >> > > >>>> orchestrating it.  It doesn't say, but perhaps  his father is a
> >> > > >>>> conductor.
> >> > > >>>> Interesting, because there is not such a strong developmental
> >> > > >>>> line/critical
> >> > > >>>> period for music, as most composers are highly precocious.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Enjoy it, it made my day.  I hope it makes yours.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> Carol
> >> > > >>>> (P.S. He reminded us how old he is when he picked his nose!!!)
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> http://www.choralnet.org/view/**268945<
> >> > > http://www.choralnet.org/view/268945>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> --
> >> > > >>>> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> >> > > >>>> Carol's motto.
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>> *Visiting Lecturer
> >> > > >>>> Wits School of Education
> >> > > >>>> Research Fellow*
> >> > > >>>> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> >> > > >>>> *
> >> > > >>>> ______________________________**____________
> >> > > >>>> _____
> >> > > >>>> xmca mailing list
> >> > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>> --
> >> > > >>> Helen Grimmett
> >> > > >>> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> >> > > >>> Faculty of Education
> >> > > >>> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> --
> >> > > >> Helen Grimmett
> >> > > >> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> >> > > >> Faculty of Education
> >> > > >> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> >> > > >> ______________________________**____________
> >> > > >> _____
> >> > > >> xmca mailing list
> >> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ______________________________**____________
> >> > > > _____
> >> > > > xmca mailing list
> >> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> >> > > Carol's motto.
> >> > >
> >> > > *Visiting Lecturer
> >> > > Wits School of Education
> >> > > Research Fellow*
> >> > > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> >> > > *
> >> > > __________________________________________
> >> > > _____
> >> > > xmca mailing list
> >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > >
> >> > __________________________________________
> >> > _____
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> >> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >>  > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >> >
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > Carol's motto.
> >
> > *Visiting Lecturer
> > Wits School of Education
> > Research Fellow*
> > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > *
> >
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>



-- 
Helen Grimmett
PhD Student, Teaching Associate
Faculty of Education
Monash University, Peninsula Campus
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