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Re: [xmca] For the musicians
Interesting. Whether you are right or not David about him watching a dvd
while he is being filmed (and I'm not as convinced of this), there is
certainly no doubt that at some point he has watched a conductor many times
- either on film or live, and most probably conducting this same piece.
Nevertheless it is phenomenal the way he knows the music and is able to
anticipate the cues and changes in tempi etc. He is certainly not following
someone else's actions in this performance or he would at best be WITH the
instruments rather than ahead of them. (Unless someone is actually
conducting his actions even further ahead of the music! - but even so,
wouldn't his movements be in mirror image then?) I do not deny though that
it is quite possible that either a dvd or one of the adults is providing
some sort of cues, and whether this is intentional or not doesn't really
matter. It is still a joy to watch such uninhibited expression of music.
I certainly agree that it is an excellent example of Vygotsky's meaning of
imitation - that we take the actions of others but make them our own, but to
do this requires some understanding of the situation. And I also agree that
this understanding does not diminish the sense we get from watching it. What
has made me feel sad however is that I looked on YouTube to see if I could
find anything else to understand the background and there are actually a
number of new videos of Jonathon, now 4, dressed in a tiny tuxedo and
conducting real orchestras. This changes the sense dramatically. Rather than
watching an exuberant 3 year old jumping around the lounge room in his
pyjamas for his own family, we are now watching a child in a very formal and
adult situation where there are certain expectations that he must make it
through to the very end of the piece. His movements are much more restrained
(no doubt constrained by both the monkey suit and the importance of the
occasion) although he still seems to get an itchy nose! (Has this become his
trademark that an adult has told him he should do because it is 'cute'?)
I'm all for fostering children's abilities, but can't we do this in ways
that are still suitable for children rather than ushering them headlong into
the adult world ahead of their time?
Helen
On 26 October 2011 12:49, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't mean to throw cold water on the discussion, but if you observe the
> boy very carefully, you notice some rather odd things.
>
> His audience (presumably mom and dad) are where the camera is. But for the
> most part he is not looking in the direction of the audience, even when they
> actually say things.
>
> For the most part, he is looking somewhere to the left of the camera.
> Sometimes he is looking there quite intently.
>
> So I think there is a TV monitor over there somewhere. He is probably
> watching a DVD of a professional performance of the symphony and he is
> imitating the conductor's movements, exaggerating theme here and there (e.g.
> when he falls off the podium).
>
> This would explain how he manages to anticipate the instruments, and it
> also explains why he consistently prompts (e.g.) the strings in a particular
> place, and why some of his movements appear to be his own, exuberant
> creations (as Ivan perceptively remarked) while others appear to be those
> from the outside).
>
> Now, I am not raising this observation (which I think is correct) as a
> spoiler, or a dampener, or a hater. To me, the only thing it really spoils
> is the idea that some musicality is inborn or inherent or culture-free
> (something I am always reminded of when Westerners who I grew up with cannot
> seem to learn to love Chinese opera the way I do).
>
> Schweder remarks somewhere that three year olds in Orissa are very much
> like three year olds in America, while five year olds in Orissa are much
> like adults in Orissa and really very little like five year olds in America.
> I think that this video shows that enculturation can be much more direct and
> immediate (and early and incomplete) than this statement supposes.
>
> I remember reading an article by a recruiter for the Julliard who was
> responsible for scouting out preschoolers of "innate musicality". After many
> years of trying to test for it and interview for it and so on she concluded
> that there was really no such thing: it's a matter of loving the music
> enough to put up with the grinding and somewhat mindless practice that
> mastering it entails. It's much more romantic to believe in innate
> musicality (and also slightly aristocratic, when you think about it), but
> there is really no scientific basis at all, not in this tape or any where
> else that I can see.
>
> It seems to me that understanding the video as an instance of what Vygotsky
> calls "imitation in a broad sense" (that is, imitation which involves an
> imitation of the ideal as well as the real, an understanding of the goal as
> well as an understanding of concrete actions that go into the goal) only
> enhances the remarkable sense we get from it (by making it understandable
> and reproducible and not just worthy of praise and envy).
>
> At the beginning of Vygotsky's essay on the prehistory of writing (Chapter
> Eight of Mind in Society) Vygotsky complains that when children learn to
> read and write we sometimes pretend that when we have taught them the
> alphabet, our job is done "Children are taught to trace out letters and make
> words out of them, but they are not taught written language." Interestingly,
> he continues his critique with a musical metaphor:
>
> "This situation recalls the development of a technical skill such as
> piano-playing: the pupil develops finger dexterity and learns to strike the
> keys while reading music, but he is in no way involved in the essence of the
> music himself." (1978: 105-106)
>
> I think Vygotsky would, like most people on this list (and certainly like
> Ivan) say that this is a kid who is deeply involved in the essence of the
> music. I notice that the daughter in law of the late great Carlo Maria
> Giulani says, in one of the many comments on the video, that the little
> boy's gestures suggests to her that the little boy might be a direct
> inheritor of her father in law's tradition. Actually, those words may be
> even truer than she supposes.
>
> David Kellogg
> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>
>
> --- On Tue, 10/25/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:04 AM
>
>
> Its those same kinds of observations that evoke the idea of perezhivanie, I
> suspect,
> Steve.
> mike
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Yes, Steve, that's exactly what he was doing, just like a conductor, and
> he
> > is THREE! I have to say I have never sent a "topic" out and got so many
> > responses.
> > Carol
> >
> > On 25 October 2011 12:59, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:
> >
> > > My personal experience of the video clip involved ways that watching
> the
> > > boy conductor enhanced my experience of this music, which I am very
> fond
> > of.
> > > I found myself reading his motions and listening to the music through
> > his
> > > ears and body, especially places where he was anticipating changes -
> for
> > > example, the way he would increase the agitation of the baton and his
> > arms
> > > as the music went from soft to loud in some of the great crescendo
> > moments,
> > > seeming to push the music forward and to greater heights with his own
> > > determination and enthusiasm. A great reminder to listen to,
> appreciate
> > and
> > > truly feel music - and of the power of anticipation.
> > >
> > > - Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi again,
> > >>
> > >> I put this link on my facebook page and Gloria Quinones commented
> > "That's
> > >> what I call perezhivanie!" I'd love for you to explain what you meant
> by
> > >> that comment here Gloria - but it made me think not so much about the
> > >> perezhivanie of the little boy, but about our perezhivanie as we
> watched
> > >> it.
> > >> As a musician, my previous experiences certainly gave me a unique
> > >> interpretation of what was going on which would not necessarily be
> > >> appreciated or understood in the same way by somebody who has never
> been
> > >> conducted or tried to conduct an orchestra, yet their own experiences
> > and
> > >> expertise in other areas of life would no doubt lead to other equally
> > >> interesting and emotionally stirring responses and interpretations.
> > >>
> > >> Whose perezhivanie were you referring to Gloria? The boy's or yours?
> I'd
> > >> love to hear about other people's perezhivanie (emotional experience)
> as
> > >> you
> > >> watched it and how it is informed by your previous experiences (with
> > >> music,
> > >> young children, videoing, having a runny nose in public, dropping
> > things,
> > >> being in hysterics, prodigies, performing etc, etc). What resonates
> with
> > >> you
> > >> and why? Maybe this might help us work out what we mean by
> perezhivanie?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Helen
> > >>
> > >> On 24 October 2011 17:01, Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@monash.edu>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Priceless! It would be fascinating to know the story behind it. I
> could
> > >>> not
> > >>> believe how well he knows the music, and his facial expressions in
> the
> > >>> quieter, slower parts are just exquisite. Thanks for sharing Carol.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Helen
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 24 October 2011 15:30, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> This little boy is a savant: he actually know the whole movement.
> > Watch
> > >>>> carefully and you will see he is not *following* the music, but
> > >>>> orchestrating it. It doesn't say, but perhaps his father is a
> > >>>> conductor.
> > >>>> Interesting, because there is not such a strong developmental
> > >>>> line/critical
> > >>>> period for music, as most composers are highly precocious.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Enjoy it, it made my day. I hope it makes yours.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Carol
> > >>>> (P.S. He reminded us how old he is when he picked his nose!!!)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.choralnet.org/view/**268945<
> > http://www.choralnet.org/view/268945>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > >>>> Carol's motto.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *Visiting Lecturer
> > >>>> Wits School of Education
> > >>>> Research Fellow*
> > >>>> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > >>>> *
> > >>>> ______________________________**____________
> > >>>> _____
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Helen Grimmett
> > >>> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> > >>> Faculty of Education
> > >>> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Helen Grimmett
> > >> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> > >> Faculty of Education
> > >> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> > >> ______________________________**____________
> > >> _____
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >>
> > >
> > > ______________________________**____________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
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> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > Carol's motto.
> >
> > *Visiting Lecturer
> > Wits School of Education
> > Research Fellow*
> > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > *
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
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> >
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--
Helen Grimmett
PhD Student, Teaching Associate
Faculty of Education
Monash University, Peninsula Campus
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