Tony Whitson wrote:
Andy,
Song, as you describe, is indisputably material -- but it is not a
physical thing in the same sense as a flute or a song sheet. It seems to
me you make
your position unnecessarily vulnerable by treating materiality as
more a matter of physicality than it needs to be (cf. the baseball
examples).
The Talmud example brings to mind Plato's objections to recording &
transmission via writing (a bit ironic, no?, from the transcriber of
Socrates'
dialogues), which I would never have attended to but for Derrida, in
D's treatment of the traditional prioritization of speech over writing.
D's
argument for "grammatology" is that speech itself is fundamentally a
kind of "writing" first; but in a sense that I would say is material, but
not
necessarily physical.
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:
Yes, I think it is the case that those currents of thinking
that do not have "mediation" in their lexicon are just "quite different"
and it
may be, as Deborah suggested, a question of "agreeing to
disagree". Probably, in the end it is the value of work produced by the
different
traditions of psychology which will tell. Within the bounds of
philosophy, it may be irresolvable.
I had thought of song in this way as well. It is not
"enduring" in the same way as the song sheet or the flute, but song seems
to have a
visceral quality which plays the role of making things endure.
The famous remark of a kid who was learning their times tables at school:
"I
know the tune, but I haven't learnt the words yet."
Interesting point about the Talmud. I did not know about
resistance to writing it down. What a great insight from that time.
Hopefully they
wrote it down! :) There is a lot o scripture which could
certainly do with a bit of lived reinterpretation!
Still thinking!
Andy
Helen Harper wrote:
Hi Andy,
It seems as if your sparring mate is conceptualising the
process of 'transmission' in quite a different way from you, so it
might be that you just end up seeing quite different
things. But it might be relevant to the discussion to point out that even
oral traditions are invariably formalised and
'objectified' to some extent. All the oral cultures that I've ever
encountered or
read about use song cycles, chanting, special intonative
patterns, repetition and other such metalinguistic tools. These tools
can make the language 'special' and worth transmitting;
they are also more easy to repeat and presumably act as mnemonics. The
special forms are found in high culture, but they're
also found in everyday activities, particularly transmitting things to
kids (what's often referred to as 'baby talk' in
linguistics can involve some grammatical simplification, but also
invariably
involves an exaggeration of phonological patterns,
lengthening of vowels etc - in short, a metalinguistic awareness that
objectifies the language to some extent).
There was an orally transmitted Jewish tradition - which
later became written down and formalised as the Talmud. My
understanding is that there was enormous resistance to
writing it down (even though the literate tools existed) because the
oral tradition was highly valued as a way ensuring that
'law' was seen as something to be discussed, interpreted and
reinterpreted - i.e., it was required to be transmitted,
but understood as something that needed to be constantly reinvented in
order to be valid. But even this law still needed to be
memorised and, as such, objectified.
Probably no help to you, but helped me to think through
the idea of 'maintaining culture by voice alone'.
Helen
On 18/10/2011, at 11:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
Well, I think that, even though I have a technical
objection, this avenue does not offer me a definitive proof.
Were I to rely on the argument that "a people
removed from their land requires a written language in order to
maintain their culture," then the Hmong people
would offer a counterexample, even if the Jews did not, having the
Old Testament, etc.
I need another argument (if one exists) to show
why cultural memory requires an enduring material culture, and the
limits to what can be maintained by voice alone.
thanks for that Eric.
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
Andy:
My understanding of how the Hmong written
language was created was more for transmitting information
from the public schools to Hmong families
that did not read english. However, now that the Hmong are
into their second and even third generation
of living in St. Paul they do utilize this written language
and it appears on shop windows and
billboards, but still the most prominent place that I see it is in
correspondence from the schools to families.
eric
From: Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: 10/17/2011 09:25 PM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in this case of an indigenous people
retaining cultural practices for
a generation after being removed from their
land, it turns out that they
*created* a written language to do it!
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> Yes, exactly the cultural practices are
transmitted from adults to
> children via the extremely strong ties to
what has been practiced for
> generations. An example is that the Hmong
have a very strong belief
> in spirits and that bad luck befalls a
family as a result of spiritual
> unbalance in a family member or in the
belongings of the family; many
> cultural practices revolve around
appeasing these "bad spirits", very
> common to see Hmong children wearing
strings tied around their wrists
> to off evil or to keep their 'souls' in
spiritual balance. Also if a
> Hmong child is born with a disability then
the family takes it on as
> their personal burden and are very
reluctant to seek outside assistance.
>
> It is also interesting that since the
Hmong have lived in St. Paul for
> 40 plus years now that a written language
has emerged as a result of
> schools efforts to illicit support from
families in the educational
> process. However, it is interesting that
Hmong cultural practices
> believe that the child is sent to the
expertise of the teacher and it
> is not for the parents to interfere in the
education of their child.
>
> By the way Clint Eastwood directed and
starred in a fabulous movie
> called "Grand Torino" that has a strong
influence of Hmong culture
> incorporated into the plot.
>
>
> If this has already been posted to XMCA
please forgive the double posting
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From: Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net>
> To: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: 10/17/2011 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
> Sent by:
xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yes, that is interesting, Eric. Do you
know *how* they do it? Is it just
> by how they raise their children?
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > Hey Andy:
> >
> > I don't know if this is exactly in line
with what you are thinking but
> > in St. Paul there is a large population
of Hmong (mountain people of
> > Laos) that have transplanted here. They
did not have a written
> > language but their cultural are still
extremely strong (marriage at a
> > young age, long drawn out funerals,
tending animals (I have been to
> > houses in St. Paul where chickens are
kept in the house), gardening.
> > Is this along the lines of your
thinking?
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: 10/14/2011 06:54 PM
> > Subject: [xmca] Cultural memory
> > Sent by:
xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > I need some help. I am having a
discussion with a supporter of Robert
> > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an
Activity Theorist. on the
> > question of cultural memory.
> >
> > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom
is that he does not theorise any
> > place for mediation in his theory of
normativity. He supposes that norms
> > are transmitted and maintained down the
generations by word of mouth
> > (taken to be an unmediated expression of
subjectivity), and artefacts
> > (whether texts, tools, buildings,
clothes, money) play no essential role
> > in this.
> >
> > I disagree but I cannot persuade my
protagonist.
> >
> > I challenged him to tell me of a
(nonlierate) indigenous people who
> > managed to maintain their customs even
after being removed from their
> > land. My protagonist responded by
suggesting the Hebrews, but of course
> > the Hebrews had the Old Testament.
Recently on xmca we had the same
> > point come up and baseball culture was
suggested, and I responded that I
> > didn't think baseball-speak could be
maintained without baseball bats,
> > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios,
uniforms and other artefacts used in
> > the game.
> >
> > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom
maintained over generations
> > without the use of arefacts (including
land and texts as well as tools,
> > but allowing the spoken word)?
> >
> > Andy
> > --
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Joint Editor MCA:
http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
> >
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>>
> >
> >
__________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
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> >
>
> --
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA:
http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
>
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA:
http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA:
http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
__________________________________________
_____
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http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK DE 19716
twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________
"those who fail to reread
are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
-- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
--
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857