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Re: [xmca] Cultural memory

Andy,
Song, as you describe, is indisputably material -- but it is not a physical thing in the same sense as a flute or a song sheet. It seems to me you make your position unnecessarily vulnerable by treating materiality as more a matter of physicality than it needs to be (cf. the baseball examples).
The Talmud example brings to mind Plato's objections to recording & transmission via writing (a bit ironic, no?, from the transcriber of Socrates' dialogues), which I would never have attended to but for Derrida, in D's treatment of the traditional prioritization of speech over writing. D's argument for "grammatology" is that speech itself is fundamentally a kind of "writing" first; but in a sense that I would say is material, but not necessarily physical. 

On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:
Yes, I think it is the case that those currents of thinking that do not have "mediation" in their lexicon are just "quite different" and it may be, as Deborah suggested, a question of "agreeing to disagree". Probably, in the end it is the value of work produced by the different traditions of psychology which will tell. Within the bounds of philosophy, it may be irresolvable.
I had thought of song in this way as well. It is not "enduring" in the same way as the song sheet or the flute, but song seems to have a visceral quality which plays the role of making things endure. The famous remark of a kid who was learning their times tables at school: "I know the tune, but I haven't learnt the words yet."
Interesting point about the Talmud. I did not know about resistance to writing it down. What a great insight from that time. Hopefully they wrote it down! :) There is a lot o scripture which could certainly do with a bit of lived reinterpretation! 

Still thinking!

Andy
Helen Harper wrote:

Hi Andy,
It seems as if your sparring mate is conceptualising the process of 'transmission' in quite a different way from you, so it might be that you just end up seeing quite different things. But it might be relevant to the discussion to point out that even oral traditions are invariably formalised and 'objectified' to some extent. All the oral cultures that I've ever encountered or read about use song cycles, chanting, special intonative patterns, repetition and other such metalinguistic tools. These tools can make the language 'special' and worth transmitting; they are also more easy to repeat and presumably act as mnemonics. The special forms are found in high culture, but they're also found in everyday activities, particularly transmitting things to kids (what's often referred to as 'baby talk' in linguistics can involve some grammatical simplification, but also invariably involves an exaggeration of phonological patterns, lengthening of vowels etc - in short, a metalinguistic awareness that objectifies the language to some extent).
There was an orally transmitted Jewish tradition - which later became written down and formalised as the Talmud. My understanding is that there was enormous resistance to writing it down (even though the literate tools existed) because the oral tradition was highly valued as a way ensuring that 'law' was seen as something to be discussed, interpreted and reinterpreted - i.e., it was required to be transmitted, but understood as something that needed to be constantly reinvented in order to be valid. But even this law still needed to be memorised and, as such, objectified.
Probably no help to you, but helped me to think through the idea of 'maintaining culture by voice alone'. 

Helen



On 18/10/2011, at 11:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
Well, I think that, even though I have a technical objection, this avenue does not offer me a definitive proof. Were I to rely on the argument that "a people removed from their land requires a written language in order to maintain their culture," then the Hmong people would offer a counterexample, even if the Jews did not, having the Old Testament, etc.
I need another argument (if one exists) to show why cultural memory requires an enduring material culture, and the limits to what can be maintained by voice alone. 

thanks for that Eric.
Andy

ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:

Andy:
My understanding of how the Hmong written language was created was more for transmitting information from the public schools to Hmong families that did not read english. However, now that the Hmong are into their second and even third generation of living in St. Paul they do utilize this written language and it appears on shop windows and billboards, but still the most prominent place that I see it is in correspondence from the schools to families. 

eric



From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date:        10/17/2011 09:25 PM
Subject:        Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu

------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in this case of an indigenous people retaining cultural practices for a generation after being removed from their land, it turns out that they 
*created* a written language to do it!
Andy

ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> Yes, exactly the cultural practices are transmitted from adults to
> children via the extremely strong ties to what has been practiced for 
> generations.  An example is that the Hmong have a very strong belief
> in spirits and that bad luck befalls a family as a result of spiritual > unbalance in a family member or in the belongings of the family; many > cultural practices revolve around appeasing these "bad spirits", very > common to see Hmong children wearing strings tied around their wrists > to off evil or to keep their 'souls' in spiritual balance. Also if a 
> Hmong child is born with a disability then the family takes it on as
> their personal burden and are very reluctant to seek outside assistance. 
>
> It is also interesting that since the Hmong have lived in St. Paul for 
> 40 plus years now that a written language has emerged as a result of
> schools efforts to illicit support from families in the educational
> process.  However, it is interesting that Hmong cultural practices
> believe that the child is sent to the expertise of the teacher and it 
> is not for the parents to interfere in the education of their child.
>
> By the way Clint Eastwood directed and starred in a fabulous movie
> called "Grand Torino" that has a strong influence of Hmong culture
> incorporated into the plot.
>
>
> If this has already been posted to XMCA please forgive the double posting 
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> To:        ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Cc:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date:        10/17/2011 11:10 AM
> Subject:        Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
> Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>
>
>
> Yes, that is interesting, Eric. Do you know *how* they do it? Is it just 
> by how they raise their children?
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > Hey Andy:
> >
> > I don't know if this is exactly in line with what you are thinking but > > in St. Paul there is a large population of Hmong (mountain people of 
> > Laos) that have transplanted here.  They did not have a written
> > language but their cultural are still extremely strong (marriage at a > > young age, long drawn out funerals, tending animals (I have been to > > houses in St. Paul where chickens are kept in the house), gardening. 
> >  Is this along the lines of your thinking?
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
> > Date:        10/14/2011 06:54 PM
> > Subject:        [xmca] Cultural memory
> > Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> >
> >
> >
> > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter of Robert 
> > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist. on the
> > question of cultural memory.
> >
> > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not theorise any > > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He supposes that norms > > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word of mouth > > (taken to be an unmediated expression of subjectivity), and artefacts > > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no essential role 
> > in this.
> >
> > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
> >
> > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous people who > > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed from their > > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews, but of course > > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had the same > > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I responded that I > > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without baseball bats, > > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other artefacts used in 
> > the game.
> >
> > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over generations > > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as well as tools, 
> > but allowing the spoken word)?
> >
> > Andy
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> 
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>> > > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>> 
> >
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>> 
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857 <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> 

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*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857

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Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK  DE  19716

twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________

"those who fail to reread
 are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
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