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Re: [xmca] concepts

Andy, I've found an equivalent to your quote on p 118 of Vol 1, in Ch 4.4 (last full paragraph). Also, in Ch 3, passages on p 94-95 make some of these points. Where does the quote you cite appear?
I'd like to learn more about how Frege viewed object relatedness and how it compares to Vygotsky's view.
Your reference to what seems to be a description of Vygotsky's view of the "external structure" of the word as referring to objects got my attention. I may be misunderstanding you. In the quote you provide, Vygotsky is not talking about the nature of the word but how the young child thinks and speaks. In Vygotsky's view, the young child is able to apply the principle of object relatedness, but does not yet differentiate either word meaning from the object or the meaning of the word from its sound form.
As for what Vygotsky referred to as the "external aspects" of the spoken word, he was talking about things like the word's sound form. He considered a word's object relatedness to be an "internal" semantic function (in unity with the signifying function), not part of its "external" aspect. It can take some close reading and re-reading to keep all this straight!
Here are some quotes I happen to have copied out from LSV CW Vol 1 on some of these questions:
1. The distinction between meaning and object relatedness was very important in Vygotsky's conception of word meaning.
" ... in what is commonly called word meaning, we must distinguish two features. These are the meaning of the expression in the true sense of the word and its function as a name which relates to a particular object, that is, its object relatedness." Vol 1 p 152
2. This distinction played a key role in Vygotsky's analysis of how children thought, including his description of pseudoconcepts, the predominate form of complexive thinking.
"The child's word may correspond with the adult's in object relatedness, but not in meaning." p 153
3. The external, auditory aspect of speech is distinct from the inner, semantic aspect.
“Though they form a unity, the inner, meaningful, semantic aspect of speech is associated with different laws of movement than its external, auditory aspect. The unity of speech is complex, not homogeneous.” p 250
4. Vygotsky viewed the semantic structure of a word as a unity of object relatedness and meaning, which he saw as different kinds of entities. (One graphic way to conceive the difference is to think of object relatedness as pointing and naming, and meaning or signifying as grasping.)
"In our analysis of the word's semantic structure, we distinguished between its object relatedness and its meaning. We tried to show that the two do not coincide. In functional terms, this caused us to differentiate the word's indicative and nominative function from its signifying function." p 254-5
5&6. These next two quotes repeat the point Vygotsky made in the quote Andy provided, that the young child considers a word to be a property of the object it refers to. The child does not initially differentiate between word meaning and object. Vygotsky believed the child also does not initially differentiate between word-meanings and word-sounds.
"The child does not initially differentiate between word meaning and the object nor between the meaning and the sound form of the word. In development, this differentiation occurs in accordance with the development of generalization." p 255
"Initially, we have only object relatedness in the structure of the word. The word's function is exclusively indicative and nominative. Meaning independent of object relatedness, signification independent of the indication and naming of the object, arises later ..." p 255 

- Steve


On Apr 14, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
Martin, looking more closely at the internal/external structure in T&S IV: 

  "We believe that this view comes closest to the truth. The data on
  children’s language (supported by anthropological data) strongly
  suggest that for a long time the word is to the child a property,
  rather than the symbol, of the object; that the child grasps the
  external structure word-object earlier than the inner symbolic
  structure. We choose this “middle” hypothesis among the several
  offered’ because we find it hard to believe, on the basis of
  available data, that a child of eighteen months to two years is able
to “discover” the symbolic function of speech. This occurs later, 
  and not suddenly but gradually, through a series of “molecular”
  changes. The hypothesis we prefer fits in with the general pattern
  of development in mastering signs which we outlined in the preceding
  section. Even in a child of school age, the functional use of a new
  sign is preceded by a period of mastering the external structure of
  the sign. Correspondingly, only in the process of operating with
  words first conceived as properties of objects does the child
  discover and consolidate their function as signs."**
It seems clear to me that "external structure" of the word is the set of objects that it refers to, more or less the reference in Frege's categorisation, and the "internal structure" is the word's symbolic functioning, which of course has nothing to do with specific objects, more or less the sense in Frege's categorisation. This is consistent with the child forming pseudoconcepts. 

Thank you for these stimuli
Andy

Martin Packer wrote:
In five of the eight chapters (counting the preface) of T&S, LSV introduces a distinction that he insists is important if we are to correctly understand how speech has psychological consequences. In each case the distinction seems different, and his terminology varies accordingly: we have word meaning, inner aspect, external and internal structure, sense and reference, sense and signification. I've summarized these below, ordered by chapter, and cited the Russian where it is available to me. I have also suggested some possible sources for these distinctions. Any help figuring this out further would be greatly appreciated! 

Martin
=============
Preface (1934?): the meanings of words “word meanings [значения слов] develop in children”
Chapter 1 (1933-34): Inner aspect of the word [внутренней стороне слова] “what is such unit, which cannot be further resolved and in which the properties are inherently contained in verbal thinking as whole? To us it seems that this unit can be found in the internal aspect of the word [внутренней стороне слова], in its meaning [значении.].” 
	von Humboldt?
	Shpet?

Chapter 2 (1932): none

Chapter 3 (1932?): none
Chapter 4 (1929): external structure [внешней структурой] and internal structure [внутренней внутренней]
“the child, as we saw, grasps the external structure earlier than the internal one; the child seizes the external structure: word- thing, which only later becomes a symbolic structure.” [ребенок, как мы видели, раньше овладевает внешней структурой, чем внутренней. Он овладевает внешней структурой: слово — вещь, которая уже после становится структурой символической.] 

Chapter 5 (1931): sense and reference
“The first thing that we can learn from contemporary linguistics is that, according to Peterson, it is essential to distinguish between the meaning of a word or expression and its objective reference, i.e. the objects which this word or expression indicates.” [Первое, что мы узнаем из современного языкознания, это то, что необходимо отличать, по выражению Петерсона, значение слова или выражения от предметного отнесения, т.е. от тех предметов, на которые данное слово или выражение указывает.]
“So contemporary linguistics does make a distinction between the meaning and the objective reference of words.” [Таким образом, современное языкознание различает значение и предметную отнесенность слова] 
	Gottleib Frege?
	Edmund Husserl?

Chapter 6 (1934): none
Chapter 7: (1933-34): sense [смыслом ] and signification [значением]
“The first of these is the predominant sense of the word over its meaning in speech inner. Paulhan rendered a great service to the psychological analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between the meaning of the word and its meaning.” [Мы могли в наших исследованиях установить три такие основные особенности, внутренне связанные между собой и образующие своеобразие смысловой стороны внутренней речи. Полан оказал большую услугу психологическому анализу речи тем, что ввел различие между смыслом слова и его значением.] 
	Paulhan?




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--
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*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/ title~db=all~content=g932564744 
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
MIA: http://www.marxists.org

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