RE: [xmca] a Russian noun

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

See, Andy, 

This is not only for "perezhivanie":

"Grammar - Other: Russian has no articles. This causes significant problems because the whole concept of article use is alien to Russian learners of English, and the English article system itself is extremely complex."
http://esl.fis.edu/grammar/langdiff/russian.htm

or

"There are no definite or indefinite articles in the Russian language. The sense of a noun is determined from the context in which it appears. That said, there are some means of expressing whether a noun is definite or indefinite. They are:The use of a direct object in the genitive instead of the accusative in negation signifies that the noun is indefinite, compare: "Я не вижу книги" ("I don't see a book" or "I don't see any book") and "Я не вижу книгу" ("I don't see the book").The use of the numeral one sometimes signifies that the noun is indefinite, e.g.: "Почему ты так долго?" - "Да так, встретил одного друга, пришлось поговорить" ("Why did it take you so long?" - "You see, I met a friend and had to talk").Word order may also be used for this purpose, compare "В комнату вбежал мальчик" ("A boy rushed into the room") and "Мальчик вбежал в комнату" ("The boy rushed into the room").The use of plural form instead of singular may signify that the noun is indefinite: "Вы купите это в магазинах." - "Вы купите это в магазине." ("You can buy this in a shop." lit. "...in shops" - "You can buy this in the shop.")"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_grammar#Nouns


Therefore, this not only about countable and uncountable, but even about "definite" and "indefinite" - When Vygotsky said, for instance, about "perezhivanie is consciousness unit" - in English as in Portuguese will not the same if you translate "perezhivanie is AN unit of consciousness", ou "perezhivanie is THE unity of consciousnness". Don't you agree? Since "word meaning" is also an unit of consciousness" I had prefered "perezhivanie is an unity...", for instance.

Achilles.

> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:27:24 +1000
> From: ablunden@mira.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] a Russian noun
> 
> Thanks Bella. I think I asked this once before. I am getting 
> deja vu! Anyways, ambiguity does the trick.
> 
> In the context of Vygotsky claiming that perezhivanie is a 
> unit, it is senseless if perezivanie is taken as a mass 
> noun, but makes perfect sense if it is taken as a countable 
> noun. So since if it is context-dependent, it is "an 
> experience." But it is never translated that way! And that's 
> what confused me.
> 
> Andy
> 
> Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote:
> > You are right, Achilles: it depends on the context: if you speak about
> > perejyvanie as a psychological concept- experience, if about a
> > specific event- an experience.
> > Bella
> > 
> > On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Achilles Delari Junior
> > <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> There is no the gramatical class "article", in Russian... we must to translate in according to the context.Every words, not only "perezhivanie". Including "the psychology" an "a psychology". I have a Russian friend that speaks Portuguesetoo, and she have difficult in say "um" (a/an) or "o" (the)... But this is not a real answer to your question,Perhaps we/they can have "any way" to know. But certainly this will not be with an "article"...
> >> Please correct me, Bella, and all Russian people. Is a major translation problem, for me.
> >> Achilles
> >>
> >>> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 23:42:29 +1000
> >>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> Subject: [xmca] a Russian noun
> >>>
> >>> Dearest Russian speakers, is there any way of saying whether
> >>> "perezhivanie" is a mass noun or a countable noun? I.e., can
> >>> we have "an experience" or only "experience" as a
> >>> translation of perezhivanie?
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> >>>> Wagner,
> >>>> In the text about "diagnostics" in Volume 5, Vigotski talks about development as"auto-conditioned" process.
> >>>> Because development is not a "marionete" (how do you say in English?) conductedneither by the line of heritage  neither the line of environment. I do not read thisas "idealistic" - just because are not the "inner" factors the determinant... I read as"dialectical" - development is the own movement - that is just the contradictory interconstitution heritage-enviroment - that is "self-propultioned"... Think only development as "history" - what can determine history that not the own history? Nature? God? For a materialistic point of view history can not be determined from bellow nor from above... Therefore history only can be an integral, contradictorywhole process that determine the conditions for itself. What more?
> >>>> This is my reading from this statement. Put it in a broader epistemological context.
> >>>> I can localize what I said in Spanish, English, and Russian, if could be useful for youhere.
> >>>> “a non-interrupted, auto-conditioned [somoobuslovlivaemyi[i]] process”
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [i] “Самообусловливаемый процесс”.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We can see even in "The crisis of seven years" that environment is not "external"to the child, because he/she is an active component constiting his own socialenvironment too...
> >>>> I understand this is at a proximal semantic field, close to your question.
> >>>> Best.
> >>>> Achilles.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:45:06 -0300
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
> >>>>> From: mcfion@gmail.com
> >>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello Achilles and group,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I want to know where Vygotsky points out that the students interest are
> >>>>> inherent? Isn't it a bit idealistic?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Something like that startled us in our  last group meetings:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In this text "The Problem of Age" (
> >>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm - Thanks
> >>>>> Andy for the text) Vygotsky points out that:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "(...) development is a continuous process of self-propulsion characterized
> >>>>> primarily by a continuous appearance and formation of the new which did not
> >>>>> exist at previous stages."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The "sef-propulsion" caught our attention... So is development an inherent
> >>>>> movement too?  Is this related to the accusations made by Leontiev of
> >>>>> Vygotsky being an idealist? If it is the social environment that promotes
> >>>>> the development, how can it be self-propelled?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This development auto-propulsion has something to do with the ideas of
> >>>>> adaptation and evolution? Or has it something to do with the ideas of Engels
> >>>>> about the dialectic movement in nature?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And after reading some practical works based on Dewey and Engeström, i
> >>>>> though that the thinking of Dewey and Vygotsky were more close...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry if my questions and appointments seem silly, but i am trying to get a
> >>>>> better understanding about Vygotsky's theories, Dewey theories, and most of
> >>>>> all, how to apply it... And i need to study a lot more about philosophy...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wagner
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Vygotsky and Dewey:
> >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytRBWCks830&feature=related
> >>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:36:11 -0700
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
> >>>>>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>> CC: vjchuck@yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Alexei-- What is your interpretation of the Youtube zoned out clip? You
> >>>>>> know
> >>>>>>> the context better than we do.
> >>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >>>>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes Andy... sure.
> >>>>>>>> Its only a little caricature... my feelings are very idiosyncratic, of
> >>>>>>>> course. Maybe only an inoffensive joke. But I feel a little confused
> >>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>> for a millisecond I understand that the clip's goal could be help
> >>>>>> somebody
> >>>>>>>> to learn about that concept... and not only to make a little joke. But
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> can be because my boundaries with English too - is not so easy for me
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> perceive when something is ironic or not, even in Portuguese... you can
> >>>>>>>> imagine in foreign languages. Even so, I preserve my considerations
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> the incongruence with a possible Vygotsky's aptitude with a child in
> >>>>>> real
> >>>>>>>> situations - more securely we can assume that there is no a vygotskian
> >>>>>>>> aptitude being represented...
> >>>>>>>> And yes Andy, you must to write, to create the clip. Even here we are
> >>>>>>>> writing, as well. And this is not equal when we are talking face to
> >>>>>> face...
> >>>>>>>> But is very different you write a script for actors in a play, and
> >>>>>> write a
> >>>>>>>> scientific article that will be only read by the distant interlocutor,
> >>>>>>>> without any image, as is the case of the transcription that they did in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> clip from passages of the chapter six of Mind in Society.... =) This
> >>>>>> is, for
> >>>>>>>> me, one of the probable objective reasons because it sounds so
> >>>>>> artificial
> >>>>>>>> and potentially subject to be subjectively understood as some kind of
> >>>>>>>> "irony" - perhaps directed to hypothetical people that only read
> >>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>> and literally repeat - not necessarily for better understanding about
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> matter... But if one not know for who this message is actually
> >>>>>> directed,
> >>>>>>>> some ambivalent meanings/feelings can be send/received... This can be
> >>>>>>>> because the own "emotional polisemy" included in language too, In my
> >>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>> of view...
> >>>>>>>> Well... all this was not for I comment here. I saw the clip since the
> >>>>>> first
> >>>>>>>> post, feel this things, and will not say nothing... But Denise's
> >>>>>>>> considerations make some sense too me, and then I wrote.
> >>>>>>>> All the best for you all, Andy, Denise and everybody.
> >>>>>>>> Achilles.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> P.S. The tool can be very interesting to create more clips, with other
> >>>>>>>> voices too. I will enjoy to put Bakhtin talking to Michel Foucault for
> >>>>>>>> instance! I have already some possible talks.  Maybe with some
> >>>>>> traditional
> >>>>>>>> introductory narrator voice, only to explain the goals...
> >>>>>>>> =).......................
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:41:54 +1000
> >>>>>>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>>>> To:
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> While I saw the clip as a somewhat crass interpretation of
> >>>>>>>>> ZPD, typical as Mike said, of those American interpretations
> >>>>>>>>> which the Russians so object to, I did not find it
> >>>>>>>>> disrespectful.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>      See    http://www.xtranormal.com/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This is the application the maker used. It is very simple.
> >>>>>>>>> Anyone can do it, and of course, as Achilles sensed, you
> >>>>>>>>> *write* a script, and enter stage directions from a menu,
> >>>>>>>>> and it makes the video for you.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think the maker probably thought it would be a good
> >>>>>>>>> teaching tool for communicating what they saw as the basics
> >>>>>>>>> of Vygotsky. The pallette of tools is very limited.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I agree in found something disrespectul too, perhaps not indented
> >>>>>>>> too...
> >>>>>>>>>> This feeling is translated in my mind as an understanding that the
> >>>>>> clip
> >>>>>>>>>> seems to be some ironic/satiric. Because it shows certain
> >>>>>> artificiality
> >>>>>>>>>> (if not to say a excessive artificiality) certainly not
> >>>>>> characteristic
> >>>>>>>>>> in Vygotsky's relations with children - based in all narrative we
> >>>>>> have,
> >>>>>>>>>> including from his daughter Gita. There was also a text from 1931,
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>> we found in the Volume about Defectology from the Works, titled
> >>>>>>>>>> "Diagnostic of the devellopment and paedological clinic of the
> >>>>>> dificult
> >>>>>>>>>> childhood" (I'm puting in English from my Espanish version) - and
> >>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>>>> we can saw a very sensitive concern from Vygotsky about he himself
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> psychiatry working with him, attending a little boy and his mother
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> translating their experiencing in "thecnical" strange words, that
> >>>>>> could
> >>>>>>>>>> not really help the mother to understand better the real situation.
> >>>>>>>> When
> >>>>>>>>>> the mother asked for them what that words was meaning, they only
> >>>>>> give
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> her the same narrative that she just had exposed to them.
> >>>>>> Therefore,
> >>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky turns concerned that he himself and the doctor did not
> >>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>>> very well what was actually hapens with the child, and all the text
> >>>>>>>> will
> >>>>>>>>>> work around the methodogical problems involved in this simple
> >>>>>>>> episode...
> >>>>>>>>>> I understand that such an aptidude described in the clip souns as a
> >>>>>>>>>> little irony, and could be give us an oportunity to think about...
> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps they was tring to popularize some definitions. But the
> >>>>>>>>>> definitions was practically literal quotes from wrote language...
> >>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky had a critics about persons that talk almost as they was
> >>>>>>>>>> writing... I can localize this too. Of course the clip have not the
> >>>>>>>>>> intention to be realistic... I think this was a kind of comic
> >>>>>> irony...
> >>>>>>>>>> if not very weel contextualized can sounds something disrespectful,
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>> have to assume, and I feel something in this way.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Achilles.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > From: dsnewnham@bluewin.ch
> >>>>>>>>>>  > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Subject: RE: [xmca] animated zpd
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:55:14 +0200
> >>>>>>>>>>  > CC:
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > This is not an academic remark but I found the clip
> >>>>>> disrespectful
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>  > probably was not intended to be so... What would Vygotsky have
> >>>>>> said
> >>>>>>>>>> to such
> >>>>>>>>>>  > a thing...where the mind is in society today?
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Denise
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>>  > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >>>>>>>> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Behalf Of mike cole
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Sent: 22 August 2010 03:49
> >>>>>>>>>>  > To: ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > Makes one pause to think when the children of your critics
> >>>>>> present
> >>>>>>>>>> you with
> >>>>>>>>>>  > a parody of their parents' ideas that they, presumably, take to
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>> the true
> >>>>>>>>>>  > grit. The basis for their belief, it seems, is greater belief in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>  > American, oversimplified and linearized view of zones of most
> >>>>>>>> proximate
> >>>>>>>>>>  > developmental transformations (e.g., the ZOMPDT). What must
> >>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>> parents be
> >>>>>>>>>>  > experiencing?
> >>>>>>>>>>  > mike
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Andy Blunden <
> >>>>>> ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > Yes, so it intrigued me that it was circulated by a Russian,
> >>>>>>>>>> educated and
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > living in Moscow, etc., etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > Andy
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> This is a wonderful representation of a large proportion of
> >>>>>>>> gripes
> >>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> Russians have with non-Russian interpretations of the zoped,
> >>>>>>>> Andy.
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> mike
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Andy Blunden
> >>>>>>>>>> <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> Found this via Alexey Melekhin's FaceBook page:
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS_Ftio1ops
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> andy
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> --
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > --
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>>>>>>>>>  > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>  > xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>  > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>  > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>  >
> >>>>>>>>>>  > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>  > xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>  > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>  > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>>>>>> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>>>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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> >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
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> >>>> xmca mailing list
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> >>> --
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> 
> 
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