Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:45:06 -0300
Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
From: mcfion@gmail.com
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Hello Achilles and group,
I want to know where Vygotsky points out that the students interest are
inherent? Isn't it a bit idealistic?
Something like that startled us in our last group meetings:
In this text "The Problem of Age" (
http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm - Thanks
Andy for the text) Vygotsky points out that:
"(...) development is a continuous process of self-propulsion characterized
primarily by a continuous appearance and formation of the new which did not
exist at previous stages."
The "sef-propulsion" caught our attention... So is development an inherent
movement too? Is this related to the accusations made by Leontiev of
Vygotsky being an idealist? If it is the social environment that promotes
the development, how can it be self-propelled?
This development auto-propulsion has something to do with the ideas of
adaptation and evolution? Or has it something to do with the ideas of Engels
about the dialectic movement in nature?
And after reading some practical works based on Dewey and Engeström, i
though that the thinking of Dewey and Vygotsky were more close...
Sorry if my questions and appointments seem silly, but i am trying to get a
better understanding about Vygotsky's theories, Dewey theories, and most of
all, how to apply it... And i need to study a lot more about philosophy...
Wagner
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
Vygotsky and Dewey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytRBWCks830&feature=related
:-)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:36:11 -0700
Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
CC: vjchuck@yahoo.com
Alexei-- What is your interpretation of the Youtube zoned out clip? You
know
the context better than we do.
mike
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes Andy... sure.
Its only a little caricature... my feelings are very idiosyncratic, of
course. Maybe only an inoffensive joke. But I feel a little confused
because
for a millisecond I understand that the clip's goal could be help
somebody
to learn about that concept... and not only to make a little joke. But
this
can be because my boundaries with English too - is not so easy for me
to
perceive when something is ironic or not, even in Portuguese... you can
imagine in foreign languages. Even so, I preserve my considerations
about
the incongruence with a possible Vygotsky's aptitude with a child in
real
situations - more securely we can assume that there is no a vygotskian
aptitude being represented...
And yes Andy, you must to write, to create the clip. Even here we are
writing, as well. And this is not equal when we are talking face to
face...
But is very different you write a script for actors in a play, and
write a
scientific article that will be only read by the distant interlocutor,
without any image, as is the case of the transcription that they did in
the
clip from passages of the chapter six of Mind in Society.... =) This
is, for
me, one of the probable objective reasons because it sounds so
artificial
and potentially subject to be subjectively understood as some kind of
"irony" - perhaps directed to hypothetical people that only read
something
and literally repeat - not necessarily for better understanding about
the
matter... But if one not know for who this message is actually
directed,
some ambivalent meanings/feelings can be send/received... This can be
because the own "emotional polisemy" included in language too, In my
point
of view...
Well... all this was not for I comment here. I saw the clip since the
first
post, feel this things, and will not say nothing... But Denise's
considerations make some sense too me, and then I wrote.
All the best for you all, Andy, Denise and everybody.
Achilles.
P.S. The tool can be very interesting to create more clips, with other
voices too. I will enjoy to put Bakhtin talking to Michel Foucault for
instance! I have already some possible talks. Maybe with some
traditional
introductory narrator voice, only to explain the goals...
=).......................
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:41:54 +1000
From: ablunden@mira.net
To:
Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
While I saw the clip as a somewhat crass interpretation of
ZPD, typical as Mike said, of those American interpretations
which the Russians so object to, I did not find it
disrespectful.
See http://www.xtranormal.com/
This is the application the maker used. It is very simple.
Anyone can do it, and of course, as Achilles sensed, you
*write* a script, and enter stage directions from a menu,
and it makes the video for you.
I think the maker probably thought it would be a good
teaching tool for communicating what they saw as the basics
of Vygotsky. The pallette of tools is very limited.
Andy
Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
I agree in found something disrespectul too, perhaps not indented
too...
This feeling is translated in my mind as an understanding that the
clip
seems to be some ironic/satiric. Because it shows certain
artificiality
(if not to say a excessive artificiality) certainly not
characteristic
in Vygotsky's relations with children - based in all narrative we
have,
including from his daughter Gita. There was also a text from 1931,
that
we found in the Volume about Defectology from the Works, titled
"Diagnostic of the devellopment and paedological clinic of the
dificult
childhood" (I'm puting in English from my Espanish version) - and
there
we can saw a very sensitive concern from Vygotsky about he himself
and
a
psychiatry working with him, attending a little boy and his mother
and
translating their experiencing in "thecnical" strange words, that
could
not really help the mother to understand better the real situation.
When
the mother asked for them what that words was meaning, they only
give
to
her the same narrative that she just had exposed to them.
Therefore,
Vygotsky turns concerned that he himself and the doctor did not
know
very well what was actually hapens with the child, and all the text
will
work around the methodogical problems involved in this simple
episode...
I understand that such an aptidude described in the clip souns as a
little irony, and could be give us an oportunity to think about...
Perhaps they was tring to popularize some definitions. But the
definitions was practically literal quotes from wrote language...
Vygotsky had a critics about persons that talk almost as they was
writing... I can localize this too. Of course the clip have not the
intention to be realistic... I think this was a kind of comic
irony...
if not very weel contextualized can sounds something disrespectful,
I
have to assume, and I feel something in this way.
Thank you.
Achilles.
> From: dsnewnham@bluewin.ch
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; ablunden@mira.net
> Subject: RE: [xmca] animated zpd
> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:55:14 +0200
> CC:
>
> This is not an academic remark but I found the clip
disrespectful
but
> probably was not intended to be so... What would Vygotsky have
said
to such
> a thing...where the mind is in society today?
>
> Denise
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: 22 August 2010 03:49
> To: ablunden@mira.net
> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] animated zpd
>
> Makes one pause to think when the children of your critics
present
you with
> a parody of their parents' ideas that they, presumably, take to
be
the true
> grit. The basis for their belief, it seems, is greater belief in
the
> American, oversimplified and linearized view of zones of most
proximate
> developmental transformations (e.g., the ZOMPDT). What must
their
parents be
> experiencing?
> mike
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Andy Blunden <
ablunden@mira.net>
wrote:
>
> > Yes, so it intrigued me that it was circulated by a Russian,
educated and
> > living in Moscow, etc., etc.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >
> >> This is a wonderful representation of a large proportion of
gripes
that
> >> Russians have with non-Russian interpretations of the zoped,
Andy.
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Found this via Alexey Melekhin's FaceBook page:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS_Ftio1ops
> >> andy
> >> --
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *Andy Blunden*
> >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> >> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>
> >> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > --
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >
> >
> >
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
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