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Re: [xmca] Question
Larry, Mike, and Michael -
I remember during my graduate school years how I was challenged by John
Broughton, my professor of Theories of Human development at TC, Columbia U
when he appealed to me as one who was fresh off the boat from Russian
shores, i.e. more knowledgeable of Vygotsky....:-) ha-ha...to explain the
seeming close connection between Mead and Vygotsky. I was definitely not
ready. I think it is worth exploring. I think the concept of mediated self
and the whole idea of mediation worth exploring as the seeming similarity is
misleading. The Vygotskian concept of psychological tools is important.
Vygotskian ideas seem to be very dialogical - I remember the conference
Vygotsky and Montessori we organized in 1991, in Utreht, Dewey and Vtygotsky
at TC in NYC, Jacques Carpey was writing on Spinoza and Vygotsky... Petr
Shedrovitskii once hypothesized that Vygotsky left a lot for the
interpretation between the lines, and I can add that he spelled out the
methodology of relating to those between the lines spaces...So the dialogue
goes on.
Elina
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm not sure about this, but reading a biography of Mead I think he
> actually never got his Ph.D. in Europe (I'm not sure if he got one when he
> came back to the U.S). But from what I remember he was never able to get
> into the lab he wanted. I believe he took some courses with Dilthey, but
> they were rather large lectures. But I think when James suggested Mead go
> over the Europe (Mead never studied with James but knew him through his
> children) it was to study in a lab closer akin to Wundt's empiricism.
>
> That said, they probably shared a number of social interlocutors including
> Dilthey, James, Dewey, others Mead ran into in Europe. It seems like ideas
> were much more wide open in those days - and everybody was influencing
> everybody.
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole
> Sent: Sat 7/31/2010 10:43 AM
> To: Larry Purss
> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Question
>
>
>
> Larry-- In an indirect sense, LSV and Mead have been in dialogue for a long
> time through a common interlouctor. Mead got his PhD with Dilthey who was
> an
> important "other" in LSV"s intellectual firmament. Certainly worth pursuing
> more deeply.
> mike
>
> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 5:58 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Elina
> > I support Mike's recommendation that you look at articles by Alex
> Gillespie
> > and Jack Martin on neo-Meadian approaches to reflexivity and
> > self-consciousness. The CENTRAL concept in their theoretical approach
> is
> > reflexivity or "perspective taking" which in Meadian approaches is much
> more
> > inclusive than "cognition or thinking". Reflexivity is a concept which
> > elaborates "ORIENTATION to life worlds" and EMERGES [is not essential or
> > innate] within social ACTS [with OTHER persons]. As Mike points out
> Mead's
> > approach has many similarities with cultural-historical theory.
> > You can find many articles by Gillespie at his website at Stirling
> > University where he has a long list of articles posted.
> >
> > By engaging with Martin's and Gillespie's writings you will be introduced
> > to alternative models of reflexivity and self-consciousness as they
> > articulate how they believe their theoretical approach adds something new
> > to modelsof the emergence of reflexivity within layers [NOT STAGES] of
> > historical development.
> > Your topic is also a central and guiding question for how I orient to the
> > world. I LOVE to attempt to juxtapose Vygotsky and Mead as two
> approaches,
> > which in CONVERSATION have the capacity to FORM new PERSPECTIVES on the
> > centrality of reflexivity to the emergence of self-consciousness whithin
> > social ACTS.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:42 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Nice to have company in a state of questioning, Elina.
> >> (It was not me who linked "reflexia" to metacognition, it was grad
> >> students
> >> at MGU!) :-)
> >>
> >> About function.
> >> Here I would not look to Vygotsky, but to Anokhin and Luria. But then
> >> Luria
> >> learned a lot from Vygotsky, so who knows. Still, they discuss
> functions
> >> and functional systems and the idea comes alive in their examples and
> >> their
> >> work. Perhaps wrongly. i am not sure. Did you and
> >> Seth get into their work?
> >>
> >> I think it might be useful here to consider the work of Martin and
> >> Gillespie
> >> that Larry pointed at, and in general, "neo-Median" ideas, for the
> >> development of samo-so-znanie (self-conjointly with-knowledge). Znanie
> is
> >> a
> >> noun, so maybe reflexivity could be connected with the process, not the
> >> product? Not at all sure. And what would it mean for them to be
> completely
> >> separated? (Or to be able to specify the specifics of their
> >> inter-connectedness!!)
> >> mike
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
> >>
> >> <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >> > Mike -
> >> > I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many
> >> different
> >> > ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks ago,
> >> during
> >> > Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long
> conversation
> >> > about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say
> "reflexia".
> >> He
> >> > talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of
> >> "self-consciousness"
> >> > and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development of
> >> > self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of
> "self-consciousness"
> >> (
> >> > that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully in
> >> > cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack of
> >> bridge
> >> > between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical
> research,
> >> I
> >> > wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect reflection (
> >> > "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you
> mentioned
> >> > both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of
> >> meta-cognition.
> >> > It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized reflection
> >> as a
> >> > metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as a
> >> cognitive,
> >> > or metacognitive process. There is also an important language
> >> difference,
> >> > Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word reflection,
> it
> >> > only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
> >> >
> >> > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
> >> > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky meant
> by
> >> > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we
> >> > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but
> >> Gennadi
> >> > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological
> >> > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the
> ISCAR
> >> > symposium on these issues.
> >> >
> >> > In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the
> >> development
> >> > of self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily
> rooted
> >> in
> >> > Russian philosophical thought.
> >> >
> >> > As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions for
> >> further
> >> > questioning will be highly appreciated.
> >> >
> >> > Elina
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Elina--
> >> >>
> >> >> I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who were
> >> >> interested
> >> >> in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that there seem
> to
> >> be
> >> >> a
> >> >> whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways with
> >> >> "self-consciousness." Terms in the family of reflectivity,
> reflexivity
> >> >> came
> >> >> up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying hard to
> >> figure
> >> >> out
> >> >> what the right English words were for whatever Russian term was being
> >> >> used.
> >> >> Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as well,
> with
> >> >> meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
> >> >>
> >> >> I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the question?
> >> >> mike
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Elina
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign off with
> by
> >> >> > Tagore. It captures the central imperative of foregrounding
> >> context
> >> >> and
> >> >> > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the string] BUT
> >> that
> >> >> > without the string there is no violin.
> >> >> > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this perspective
> >> >> > elaborates.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
> >> >> > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the Historical roots
> of
> >> >> > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Larry
> >> >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
> >> >> > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Hi, everyone,
> >> >> > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications on
> >> >> > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am
> >> interested
> >> >> in
> >> >> > any
> >> >> > > references on this issue.
> >> >> > > Thanks in advance,
> >> >> > > Elina
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --
> >> >> > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end
> of
> >> it
> >> >> and
> >> >> > > it
> >> >> > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> string
> >> is
> >> >> > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> >> violin
> >> >> and
> >> >> > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> >> >> string.
> >> >> > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> >> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > xmca mailing list
> >> >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >> >
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> xmca mailing list
> >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it
> >> and
> >> > it responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string
> is
> >> > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin
> and
> >> > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> string.
> >> > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >
> >
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>
>
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> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>
>
--
I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it and it
responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin and
tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin string.
-Sir Rabindranath Tagore
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