Re: [xmca] Question

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Nice to have company in a state of questioning, Elina.
(It was not me who linked "reflexia" to metacognition, it was grad students
at MGU!) :-)

About function.
Here I would not look to Vygotsky, but to Anokhin and Luria. But then Luria
learned a lot from Vygotsky, so who knows.  Still, they discuss functions
and functional systems and the idea comes alive in their examples and their
work. Perhaps wrongly. i am not sure. Did you and
Seth get into their work?

I think it might be useful here to consider the work of Martin and Gillespie
that Larry pointed at, and in general, "neo-Median" ideas, for the
development of samo-so-znanie (self-conjointly with-knowledge). Znanie is a
noun, so maybe reflexivity could be connected with the process, not the
product? Not at all sure. And what would it mean for them to be completely
separated? (Or to be able to specify the specifics of their
inter-connectedness!!)
mike
mike

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
<ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:

> Mike -
> I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many different
> ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks ago, during
> Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long conversation
> about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say "reflexia". He
> talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of "self-consciousness"
> and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development of
> self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of "self-consciousness" (
> that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully in
> cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack of bridge
> between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical research, I
> wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect reflection (
> "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you mentioned
> both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of meta-cognition.
> It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized reflection as a
> metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as a cognitive,
> or metacognitive process. There is also an important language difference,
> Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word reflection, it
> only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
>
> Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
> psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky meant by
> function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we
> discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but Gennadi
> and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological
> functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the ISCAR
> symposium on these issues.
>
> In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the development
> of self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily rooted in
> Russian philosophical thought.
>
> As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions for further
> questioning will be highly appreciated.
>
> Elina
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Elina--
>>
>> I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who were
>> interested
>> in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that there seem to be
>> a
>> whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways with
>> "self-consciousness."  Terms in the family of reflectivity, reflexivity
>> came
>> up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying hard to figure
>> out
>> what the right English words were for whatever Russian term was being
>> used.
>> Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as well, with
>> meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
>>
>> I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the question?
>> mike
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Elina
>> >
>> > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign off with by
>> > Tagore.  It  captures the central imperative of foregrounding  context
>> and
>> > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the string] BUT that
>> > without the string there is no violin.
>> > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this perspective
>> > elaborates.
>> >
>> > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
>> > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the Historical roots of
>> > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
>> >
>> > Larry
>> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
>> > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi, everyone,
>> > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications on
>> > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am interested
>> in
>> > any
>> > > references on this issue.
>> > >  Thanks in advance,
>> > >  Elina
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it
>> and
>> > > it
>> > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
>> > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin
>> and
>> > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
>> string.
>> > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it and
> it responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
> supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin and
> tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin string.
> -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>
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