Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

OK, I will read when possible. Soon I hope!!

Here is the link to the image. My interest is in your introspective
microgenetic process of interpreting it.
mike
-------------
The New Yorker has done it again. If you have a minute, take a look at this
week's cover.
In the process of looking new meanings will emerge. How they emerge appears
to differ from person to person. I would REALLY appreciate a microgenetic
introspective report from anyone with the time. I have now collected three
examples of such, including my own and all three are different.

I sure wish I could get to ask Vygotsky and Eistenshtein to do this and
report to us about it!!
mike

http://archives.newyorker.com/?i=2010-07

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> I could not look at, until now... Unfortunately I had not read most of XMCA
> topics last times, because I was working at a little paper here, I'm
> suffering a lot, because the publisher cuts in my original... well... Poor
> Vygotsky - if me, being nobody, turned so sad, I wonder how crude must had
> been for him, that was a genius :-) ... And so, I don't know what is
> happening by other communication means as well. Can you point me some link?
>
> See, here are the three versions with the page numbers. I put attached too,
> in case of problems with text configuration.... (some typing mistakes will
> be my fault, please forgive me in advance)...
>
> I
> – At the Reader
>
>
>
> “These
> observations lead us to the conclusion that the child solves a practical
> task
> with the help of not only eyes and hands, but also speech. This newly born
> unity of perception, speech and action, which leads to the inculcation of
> the
> laws of the visual field, constitutes the real and vital object of analysis
> aimed
> at studing the origin of specifically human forms of behavior”
>
> (p. 109)
>
>
>
>
>
> II
> – At “Collected Works” - Volume 6.
>
>
>
> “These
> observations bring us to the conclusion that the child solves a practical
> problem not only with his eyes and hands, but also with the help of speech.
> The
> unity of perception that has developed, of speech and action, which leads
> to a
> re-organization of the signs of the visual field, also makes up a
> subordinate
> and very important object of analysis directed toward the study of the
> origin of specifically human forms of behavior."
>
> (p. 15 – translation from Russian -
> Marie J. Hall)
>
>
>
>
>
> III - The Russian
> 1984 - Tom 6
>
>  "Эти
> наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребёнок решает практическую задачу
> не
> только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи. Возникшее  единство
> восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит
> к перестройке законов  зрительного поля,
> и составляет подлинный и важнейший объект анализа, направленного на
> изучение происхождения
> специфически человеческих форм поведения."
>
> (p. 23 – Pedagogika Publisher)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:12:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>
> I need to read the full text again, Achilles. What page does it appear on
> in LSV's collected works in English and in the "ReadingVygotsky" volume?
>
> I am somewhat disappointed that people on XMCA have responded to that New
> Yorker image at such a "macro" level. Did you get a chance to look at it? Of
> course, your perception will be changed by what has been written, but still,
> it is interesting. I will write about it later after others have had a
> chance to reply, explaining why I find it so interesting.
>
> mike
>
> PS-- I am sorry i missed information that you received the emotions book.
> too much email, too much work, my usual problem.
> Its nice to have a three day weekend!!
>
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes... but I'm not only criticizing the poor conditions of American
> Editorial Endeavors - of course outside Russia, in USA are the most
> important publishers for Vygotsky's works in the world, and I'm very
> thankful for you all... BUT => I was trying to make sense for that unity
> "action-perception-speech" maybe could really not be the "more" important
> unity, but an important one, spite not the more important... But let it be.
>
>
> Yes, thank you very much, that book is very interesting some critics from
> Vygotsky to James and Langue are almost literally in that book.. But I don't
> finish yet... I can try to make a rusume to pass you, if could be useful for
> you... I don't what happens for Chabrier, I guess a sudden death... There
> are no clues about his biography... and no titles beyond that, -- In Google
> searches, and other internet databases... I liked him...
>
> Thank you very much. :-)
>
> Achilles.
>
> P.S. I had answered your question in other e-mail, if you see there later
> is the almost the same I said here. Best!
>
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:24:49 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>
> To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>
> Who knows, Achilles. I do not know the person or why she confused podlinni
> with podchinit! (I am guessing). Maybe she was poorly paid and in a hurry.
>
>
> Did you get that french book on emotions???
> mike
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Exactly, I know, the "subordinate" is from American volume 6 (1999) - Marie
> J. Hall , not mine. My question was why she did this? She didn't have a
> dictionary as good as you have???
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:57:58 -0700
>
>
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To:
>
>
> >
> > *Podlinni is not subordinate. The three definitions given in the big
> Russian
> > dictionary are:
> >
> > 1. being original, not copied
> >  2. real
> > 3. the most real and true
>
>
> >
> > genuine works well as a gloss on all of these.
> > *vazneishii i would translate as *most important*
> > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Thank you very much, Mike.
> > >
> > > I only didn't understand that important difference in volume 6 -
> English
> > > version (the one that I have is from 1999) and the Russian itself
> (1984)
>
>
> > >
> > > SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object of analysis*
> > > X
> > > ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,
> > >
> > > Except "subordinate" in English is not as "subordinado" in
> Portuguese...
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > That unity ("newly born"), action-perception-speech is one important
> object
> > > of analysis, among others, or it is the more important at this
> ontogenetic
> > > moment? Even I suspect this "unity" is not a "unity of analysis"
> because if
>
>
> > > it is the "object of analysis", how can a process be at the same time
> the
> > > object of analysis and the own unity to understand this own object???
> For me
> > > this unity seems to be something more like a "functional unity" (not
> exactly
>
>
> > > in posterior Luria's sense for the 3 functional unities, of course) or
> > > better "inter-functional unity" -- maybe this "unity" can be called
> only a
> > > new "functional system" more precisely... among others... action and
> speech,
>
>
> > > ok... but why only this two plus "perception"... can not be
> > > "action-speech-attention", "action-speech-thinking",
> > > "action-speech-will"???? In this case the not fidel "subordinate" could
> be
>
>
> > > even better than the Russian 1984... Please point my mistake in this
> way of
> > > reasoning...
> > >
> > > *This is very difficult for me to follow. but fidelity works about the
> > > same way that genuine does.*
>
>
> > >
> >
> > mike
> >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:13:59 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
>
>
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > >
> > > I think that the 1984 is from something luria had in Russian or these
>
>
> > > "young" guys could not have translated it into English, but I am
> unsure.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sure,
> > >
> > > my question is because can happens situations in which a Russian
> edition is
> > > translation from a English original publication wrote in English by the
> own
>
>
> > > Russian authors. Then... I am curious about the source of the 1984's
> Russian
> > > edition... If it is published from some "original" manuscripts from
> 1930 or
> > > translated based in your american English version, published in the
>
>
> > > "Vygotsky Reader"s version... it is all...
> > >
> > >
> > > . For instance the is a text from Vygotsky originally publishede in
> English
> > > about Thought and Schizophrenia... that I guess there is no Russian
> original
>
>
> > > version anymore. Spite this must be Russian versions today, translated
> from
> > > the English I presume... There is no such situations???
> > >
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
>
> > > **************
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:05:13 -0700
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > >
> > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>
>
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source because I got
> this
>
>
> > > > from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written changes in
> the
> > > > translation on it.
> > > >
> > > > It is supposed to have been written for an American publication, but
> was
>
>
> > > not
> > >
> > > > published.
> > > >
> > > > I have been told by the parties involved that Peter Tulviste and
> Kolya
> > > > Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on to more
>
>
> > > important
> > > > things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a Neuropsych conf.
> (And i
> > >
> > > > could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the complex
> > > circumstances
>
>
> > > > between 1930 and 1977!!).
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
>
>
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>
>
> > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian
> from
>
>
> > > Tom 6
> > > > > > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > > > > > Thank you very much.Achilles.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
>
>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"  does not
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > correspond
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > > > > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual
> field
>
>
> > > > > > > so both translations are far from ideal
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> > > > > ellampert@gmail.com
>
>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > > > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me
> for
>
>
> > > a
> > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But
> I
> > > agree
> > >
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second
> sentence.
>
>
> > > > > "Genuine
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the most important..." would be closer to the original from
> my
> > > point
> > >
> > > > > of
>
>
> > > > > > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of
> Vygotsky's
> > > > > concept
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.
>
>
> > >  "Real,
> > >
> > > > > > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Elina
>
> > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>
>
> > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this
> book
>
>
> > >
> > > > > "Tool
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this
> > > simple
> > > > > > quote
>
>
> > > > > > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very
> different,
> > > see
> > >
> > > > > > please:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not
> > > only
> > > > > eyes
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of
> perception,
>
>
> > > speech
> > >
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > action,
> > > > > > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual
> field,
>
>
> > > > > > > > constitutes
> > > > > > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing
> the
> > > origin
> > >
> > > > > > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice
> that
>
>
> > > this
> > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this
> > > information
> > >
> > > > > > > > correct,
>
>
> > > > > > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe
> Luria
> > > > > > himself?)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
>
>
> > > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his
> > > eyes
> > >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > hands,
> > > > > > > > > but
>
>
> > > > > > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that
> has
> > > > > > developed,
> > > > > > > > > of
> > >
> > > > > > > > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the
>
>
> > > signs of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > visual
> > > > > > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT
> *object
> > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of
> > > > > specifically
> > > > > > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок
> решает
> > >
> > > > > > практическую
> > > > > > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью
> речи.
>
>
> > > > > > Возникшее
> > > > > > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к
> > >
> > > > > перестройке
> > > > > > > > законов
>
>
> > > > > > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ
>  *объект
> > > > > > анализа*,
> > > > > > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически
>
>
> > > человеческих
> > >
> > > > > > форм
> > > > > > > > > поведения."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > > ***************************************
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > > > > > (не
>
>
> > > > > > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2. (истинный)
> true,
> > >
> > > > > real;
> > > > > > and
>
>
> > > > > > > > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > > > > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > > > > > > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more
> > > > > adequate,
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This
>
>
> > > Russian
> > >
> > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > not translated from the English version supposed given for
> Cole
> > > by
>
>
> > > > > > Luria,
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were
> lost,
> > > or
> > >
> > > > > > > > something
>
>
> > > > > > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the
> English
> > > > > > version of
> > > > > > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky
> and
>
>
> > >
> > > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for international
> > > publication
> > > > > > > > trying???
>
>
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to
> know
> > > that
> > > > > > "newly
> > > > > > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not
>
>
> > > exactly a
> > >
> > > > > > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know
> > > something
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > translations is useful because the two English versions are
> not
>
>
> > > so
> > >
> > > > > > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what
> was
> > > > > > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thank you, very much.
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Achills.
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE PARA O NOVO
> > > HOTMAIL.
> > > > > > > > CLIQUE
> > > > > > > > > AQUI.
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:QUERANEXAR80:-
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> > > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one
> end
>
>
> > > of it
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> > > string is
> > >
>
>
> > > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > > violin
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a
> violin
>
>
> > > > > > string.
> > >
> > > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
>
>
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>
>
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
>
>
> > >
> > > > > > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI
> PARA
> > > > > > COMEÇAR.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
>
>
> > >
> http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> > >
>
>
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
>
>
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> > >
> > >
> > > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA
> COMO.
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > PREPARE-SE: O SEU HOTMAIL VAI FICAR MELHOR DO QUE NUNCA. CLIQUE E VEJA
> AS
> > > NOVIDADES.
>
>
> > >
> > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:PREPARE-SE83:-
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> > >
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>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
> O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA COMO.
>
>
>
>
> O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 DÁ DICAS DE SEGURANÇA PARA VOCÊ SAIBA MAIS!
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI PARA
> COMEÇAR.
>
> http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
>
> _______________________________________________
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