I could not look at, until now... Unfortunately I had not read most of XMCA topics last times, because I was working at a little paper here, I'm suffering a lot, because the publisher cuts in my original... well... Poor Vygotsky - if me, being nobody, turned so sad, I wonder how crude must had been for him, that was a genius :-) ... And so, I don't know what is happening by other communication means as well. Can you point me some link?
See, here are the three versions with the page numbers. I put attached too, in case of problems with text configuration.... (some typing mistakes will be my fault, please forgive me in advance)...
I
– At the Reader
“These
observations lead us to the conclusion that the child solves a practical task
with the help of not only eyes and hands, but also speech. This newly born
unity of perception, speech and action, which leads to the inculcation of the
laws of the visual field, constitutes the real and vital object of analysis aimed
at studing the origin of specifically human forms of behavior”
(p. 109)
II
– At “Collected Works” - Volume 6.
“These
observations bring us to the conclusion that the child solves a practical
problem not only with his eyes and hands, but also with the help of speech. The
unity of perception that has developed, of speech and action, which leads to a
re-organization of the signs of the visual field, also makes up a subordinate
and very important object of analysis directed toward the study of the
origin of specifically human forms of behavior."
(p. 15 – translation from Russian -
Marie J. Hall)
III - The Russian
1984 - Tom 6
"Эти
наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребёнок решает практическую задачу не
только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи. Возникшее единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит
к перестройке законов зрительного поля,
и составляет подлинный и важнейший объект анализа, направленного на изучение происхождения
специфически человеческих форм поведения."
(p. 23 – Pedagogika Publisher)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:12:31 -0700
Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
I need to read the full text again, Achilles. What page does it appear on in LSV's collected works in English and in the "ReadingVygotsky" volume?
I am somewhat disappointed that people on XMCA have responded to that New Yorker image at such a "macro" level. Did you get a chance to look at it? Of course, your perception will be changed by what has been written, but still, it is interesting. I will write about it later after others have had a chance to reply, explaining why I find it so interesting.
mike
PS-- I am sorry i missed information that you received the emotions book. too much email, too much work, my usual problem.
Its nice to have a three day weekend!!
On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes... but I'm not only criticizing the poor conditions of American Editorial Endeavors - of course outside Russia, in USA are the most important publishers for Vygotsky's works in the world, and I'm very thankful for you all... BUT => I was trying to make sense for that unity "action-perception-speech" maybe could really not be the "more" important unity, but an important one, spite not the more important... But let it be.
Yes, thank you very much, that book is very interesting some critics from Vygotsky to James and Langue are almost literally in that book.. But I don't finish yet... I can try to make a rusume to pass you, if could be useful for you... I don't what happens for Chabrier, I guess a sudden death... There are no clues about his biography... and no titles beyond that, -- In Google searches, and other internet databases... I liked him...
Thank you very much. :-)
Achilles.
P.S. I had answered your question in other e-mail, if you see there later is the almost the same I said here. Best!
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:24:49 -0700
Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
Who knows, Achilles. I do not know the person or why she confused podlinni with podchinit! (I am guessing). Maybe she was poorly paid and in a hurry.
Did you get that french book on emotions???
mike
On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
Exactly, I know, the "subordinate" is from American volume 6 (1999) - Marie J. Hall , not mine. My question was why she did this? She didn't have a dictionary as good as you have???
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:57:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To:
>
> *Podlinni is not subordinate. The three definitions given in the big Russian
> dictionary are:
>
> 1. being original, not copied
> 2. real
> 3. the most real and true
>
> genuine works well as a gloss on all of these.
> *vazneishii i would translate as *most important*
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Thank you very much, Mike.
> >
> > I only didn't understand that important difference in volume 6 - English
> > version (the one that I have is from 1999) and the Russian itself (1984)
> >
> > SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object of analysis*
> > X
> > ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,
> >
> > Except "subordinate" in English is not as "subordinado" in Portuguese...
> >
> >
> > That unity ("newly born"), action-perception-speech is one important object
> > of analysis, among others, or it is the more important at this ontogenetic
> > moment? Even I suspect this "unity" is not a "unity of analysis" because if
> > it is the "object of analysis", how can a process be at the same time the
> > object of analysis and the own unity to understand this own object??? For me
> > this unity seems to be something more like a "functional unity" (not exactly
> > in posterior Luria's sense for the 3 functional unities, of course) or
> > better "inter-functional unity" -- maybe this "unity" can be called only a
> > new "functional system" more precisely... among others... action and speech,
> > ok... but why only this two plus "perception"... can not be
> > "action-speech-attention", "action-speech-thinking",
> > "action-speech-will"???? In this case the not fidel "subordinate" could be
> > even better than the Russian 1984... Please point my mistake in this way of
> > reasoning...
> >
> > *This is very difficult for me to follow. but fidelity works about the
> > same way that genuine does.*
> >
>
> mike
>
> > Achilles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:13:59 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >
> > I think that the 1984 is from something luria had in Russian or these
> > "young" guys could not have translated it into English, but I am unsure.
> > mike
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure,
> >
> > my question is because can happens situations in which a Russian edition is
> > translation from a English original publication wrote in English by the own
> > Russian authors. Then... I am curious about the source of the 1984's Russian
> > edition... If it is published from some "original" manuscripts from 1930 or
> > translated based in your american English version, published in the
> > "Vygotsky Reader"s version... it is all...
> >
> >
> > . For instance the is a text from Vygotsky originally publishede in English
> > about Thought and Schizophrenia... that I guess there is no Russian original
> > version anymore. Spite this must be Russian versions today, translated from
> > the English I presume... There is no such situations???
> >
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > **************
> >
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:05:13 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> >
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> >
> > > Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source because I got this
> > > from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written changes in the
> > > translation on it.
> > >
> > > It is supposed to have been written for an American publication, but was
> > not
> >
> > > published.
> > >
> > > I have been told by the parties involved that Peter Tulviste and Kolya
> > > Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on to more
> > important
> > > things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a Neuropsych conf. (And i
> >
> > > could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the complex
> > circumstances
> > > between 1930 and 1977!!).
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian from
> > Tom 6
> > > > > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > > > > Thank you very much.Achilles.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field" does not
> >
> > > > > correspond
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > > > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual field
> > > > > > so both translations are far from ideal
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> > > > ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me for
> > a
> > > > > quick
> > > > > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But I
> > agree
> >
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second sentence.
> > > > "Genuine
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the most important..." would be closer to the original from my
> > point
> >
> > > > of
> > > > > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of Vygotsky's
> > > > concept
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.
> > "Real,
> >
> > > > > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this book
> >
> > > > "Tool
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this
> > simple
> > > > > quote
> > > > > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very different,
> > see
> >
> > > > > please:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> >
> > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not
> > only
> > > > eyes
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of perception,
> > speech
> >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > action,
> > > > > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual field,
> > > > > > > constitutes
> > > > > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing the
> > origin
> >
> > > > > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice that
> > this
> > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this
> > information
> >
> > > > > > > correct,
> > > > > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe Luria
> > > > > himself?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his
> > eyes
> >
> > > > and
> > > > > > > hands,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that has
> > > > > developed,
> > > > > > > > of
> >
> > > > > > > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the
> > signs of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > visual
> > > > > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object
> >
> > > > > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of
> > > > specifically
> > > > > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок решает
> >
> > > > > практическую
> > > > > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи.
> > > > > Возникшее
> > > > > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к
> >
> > > > перестройке
> > > > > > > законов
> > > > > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект
> > > > > анализа*,
> > > > > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически
> > человеческих
> >
> > > > > форм
> > > > > > > > поведения."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ***************************************
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > > > > (не
> > > > > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original 2. (истинный) true,
> >
> > > > real;
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > (B) 2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ 1.
> > > > > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1 2.
> > > > > > > > (главный) major, paramount важнейшая проблема —
> >
> > > > > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more
> > > > adequate,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This
> > Russian
> >
> > > > > version
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not translated from the English version supposed given for Cole
> > by
> > > > > Luria,
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were lost,
> > or
> >
> > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the English
> > > > > version of
> > > > > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky and
> >
> > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for international
> > publication
> > > > > > > trying???
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to know
> > that
> > > > > "newly
> > > > > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not
> > exactly a
> >
> > > > > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know
> > something
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > translations is useful because the two English versions are not
> > so
> >
> > > > > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what was
> > > > > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you, very much.
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Achills.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> > > > > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE PARA O NOVO
> > HOTMAIL.
> > > > > > > CLIQUE
> > > > > > > > AQUI.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:QUERANEXAR80:-
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end
> > of it
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> > string is
> >
> > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > violin
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> > > > > string.
> >
> > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> > > > > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI PARA
> > > > > COMEÇAR.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> >
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA COMO.
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > PREPARE-SE: O SEU HOTMAIL VAI FICAR MELHOR DO QUE NUNCA. CLIQUE E VEJA AS
> > NOVIDADES.
> >
> > http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:PREPARE-SE83:-
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA COMO.
O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 DÁ DICAS DE SEGURANÇA PARA VOCÊ SAIBA MAIS!
_________________________________________________________________
TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI PARA COMEÇAR.
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