Re: [xmca] Honestly....

[Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@education.monash.edu.au>]

Just wanted to add that Marilyn's new book also has a section on the
Golden key Schools, and has been very influenced by her work with Elena
Kravtsova and Gennady Kravtsov...Funny how the threads keep linking up!

Cheers,
Helen

----- Original Message -----
From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, April 30, 2010 9:47 am
Subject: Re: [xmca] Honestly....
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Cc: Avis Ridgway <avis.ridgway@education.monash.edu.au>

> I, too, have found this thread really interesting. The video you 
> mention,Avis, sounds fascinating. Is it available somewhere on the 
> web? These
> phenomena are mostly written about or depicted in still shots. 
> Seeing the
> dynamics would be really interesting.
> 
> I have not been following the newborn development literature 
> closely in the
> past couple of years, but I think one of the points
> of continuing interest/concern/controversy is how to interpret early
> capacities once thought present only much later. Early
> infant imitation has been among those controversial areas, although my
> impression is that along with other signs of early
> capacities (infant response to human face, surprise when elementary 
> physical"laws" are violated, etc.) there is a lot
> broader acceptance of the existence of such capacities than there 
> was when
> Bower was writing.
> 
> I think that part of the current focus of research is on whether such
> phenomena are learned, or "pre-pared" by our phylogenetic history.
> 
> When you write:
> "These video recordings over the first days , weeks and months and 
> spokenobservations are very helpful in showing that learning from 
> birth is
> supported by a social situation, and also shows how parents 'in the 
> know'observe with intention and how that interested observation 
> builds abilities
> in the child to respond" I am unclear about your view of the first
> manifestations of, say, tongue protrusion. That first time, was it 
> learned?
> I totally agree that the social situation of development is central to
> learning AND development, and that the interested observation of 
> those in
> the know is central to creating contingencies that make the process 
> build.But the first time?
> 
> Perhaps I have misinterpreted both you and David. The issue of the 
> sourcesof change in early infancy, like later developmental 
> periods, along with the
> issue of "origins" seems very well worth our careful consideration.
> 
> I also want to second David Kellog's invocation of Elen 
> Dissanayake's work.
> She also wrote a marvelous article in a book
> on the origins of music, focused on ontogenetic origins in humans, 
> that she
> relates to early language acquisition, which, for
> hearing children, pretty certainly begins before birth and is built 
> upon in
> reciprocal interactions thereafter. See
> http://www.ellendissanayake.com/ for a lot more by this really 
> interestingscholar.
> 
> mike
> 
> PS-- And thanks for the ref to Marilyn Fleer's book. With her 
> article now
> under discussion at XMCA maybe we can
> cadge a copy of the book for review in MCA!!
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Avis Ridgway 
> <avisr@netspace.net.au> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for interest and sharing references.
> >
> > My point in sharing was not to illuminate "temporary cognitive
> > capabilities"
> > (understood for years), but to go far wider and direct our 
> thoughts more to
> > the role of the daily life social context
> > and play in children's learning and development.
> >
> > Fleer, M. (2010). Early Learning and Development: Cultural-
> historical> concepts in play.
> > Melbourne: Cambridge University Press.
> >
> >
> > Avis
> >
> > On 29/04/2010, at 12:28 PM, David H Kirshner wrote:
> >
> >  The amazing, but temporary, cognitive capabilities of newborns was
> >> documented decades ago. The following article presents pictures as
> >> evidence.
> >> Bower, T. G. R. (1976, Nov. 23). Repetitive processes in child
> >> development. Scientific American, 5(5), 38-47.
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]>> On Behalf Of Avis Ridgway
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:49 AM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Honestly....
> >>
> >> Adding to Helen's observation, I have video of my son ( an
> >> audiologist) holding his 12 hours old daughter out in front of him
> >> along his arm, head supported in extended arm and hand ..., so that
> >> they are face to face. He is checking to see if she responds to 
> him.>> He sticks his tongue out at her and she does this back to 
> him. He
> >> calls to his wife who is videoing this from the hospital bed 
> "did you
> >> see that??? He does it again and she "replies"/ copies"
> >>
> >> He tries something different. He does a yawn and YES she yawns 
> back.>> These responses are recorded on the video.
> >>
> >> As a researcher in early childhood, I can see that my 
> granddaughter's>> early responses have been carefully noted, 
> especially her speech
> >> development because her mother is a speech pathologist. Both 
> parents>> paid very careful attention to record very early sounds and
> >> responses.  These video recordings over the first days , weeks and
> >> months and spoken observations are very helpful in showing that
> >> learning from birth is supported by a social situation, and also 
> shows>> how parents 'in the know' observe with intention and how that
> >> interested observation builds abilities in the child to respond.
> >>
> >> Avis
> >>
> >> On 28/04/2010, at 12:25 PM, Martin Packer wrote:
> >>
> >>  Helen,
> >>>
> >>> I am sure that you have a very smart daughter!  But I do think 
> that>>> what you've described is not as unusual as the nurses 
> viewed it.
> >>> Nurses do so much more than their fair share of the work in a
> >>> hospital that they don't generally have the time or opportunity to
> >>> observe what neonates are doing.
> >>>
> >>> A few weeks ago I mentioned here the research of Fajans, one of 
> Kurt>>> Lewin's students, who showed that the response of an infant 
> to an
> >>> interesting object varied depending on whether an adult was 
> present>>> or not. The infant seemed to perceive the object as more 
> potentially>>> available if someone were around to fetch it, and of 
> course during
> >>> the first year infants require that other people not only feed and
> >>> clothe them, but move them around and fetch and carry for them. In
> >>> your case, you facilitated your infant daughter's response to the
> >>> nurse entering the room by supporting her, probably holding her 
> in a
> >>> seated position, because the newborn's head is so large in
> >>> proportion to the body that they have very limited ability to move
> >>> it unaided.
> >>>
> >>> It's interesting that your second observation was when she was 
> about>>> 2 months old, because there's a marked change in the 
> organization of
> >>> infant behavior at around six weeks. Neonatologists distinguish 6
> >>> behavioral states in newborns, but around 6 weeks it gets very 
> hard>>> to apply the criteria. I had the opportunity to discuss 
> this with
> >>> Hanus Papousek, who I believed first developed the scoring of 
> these>>> states, and he confirmed my observation. One has the 
> impression that
> >>> already the infant has acquired some degree of control of their 
> own>>> reactions to the environment (note how I wove in those 
> Vygotskian>>> terms!), and consequently has greater ability to 
> initiate>>> interactions, such as the overtures to the other baby 
> that you
> >>> describe.
> >>>
> >>> Why infants are so fascinated by other infants continues to puzzle
> >>> me, however! Perhaps it's the similarity of tempo.
> >>>
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:40 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  When I was in hospital with my first baby I was sitting on my 
> bed one
> >>>> morning holding my new daughter and singing her a song, engrossed
> >>>> in how
> >>>> intently she was watching me. As I sang, a nurse entered the 
> room and
> >>>> Natalie immediately swung her head round to look at her. The 
> nurse>>>> was
> >>>> stunned, saying she had never seen such a young baby (a few days
> >>>> old) do
> >>>> that.
> >>>>
> >>>> About 7-8 weeks later at my new mums group the maternal health 
> nurse>>>> commented on the way that Natalie (being held on my lap) 
> was watching
> >>>> and smiling at the baby on the Mum's lap next to me. "She's going
> >>>> to be
> >>>> a bright one, that one!" she 'warned' me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Being my first baby, I didn't recognise any of these actions as
> >>>> unusual
> >>>> and thought this must be what all babies do, but the maternity 
> nurses>>>> who had seen hundreds of babies thought it was very 
> unusual. Perhaps
> >>>> Martin, it was those very early (within hours) intense 
> interactions>>>> of
> >>>> talking, singing and reading to her that 'summoned' her to expect
> >>>> others
> >>>> to be interesting to interact with too? But don't all new 
> parents do
> >>>> this? (Well perhaps not the reading! - That was the luck of this
> >>>> child
> >>>> to have two primary school teachers as parents!)
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting....
> >>>> Helen
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
> >>>> Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:13 am
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Honestly....
> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>
> >>>>  Andy,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the Levontin, which I will read with pleasure. But on
> >>>>> this issue I'm drawing more on my own experience than what I 
> read>>>>> in books. After I finished my undergraduate degree I 
> didn't want to
> >>>>> get a PhD, so I looked for work around London and managed to 
> get a
> >>>>> research job that involved conducting observations of neonatal
> >>>>> behavior at birth and an assessment (designed by pediatrician 
> Berry>>>>> Brazelton) of their capabilities during the first weeks 
> of life (we
> >>>>> repeated it at intervals from about 3 hours to 6 weeks of 
> age). I
> >>>>> am attaching a photo I took of one of our research 
> participants to
> >>>>> illustrate why I think it's not quite right to say that children
> >>>>> must 'acquire' the tendency to engage in interaction. To talk of
> >>>>> the child being 'summoned' to interaction works better for 
> me, and
> >>>>> obviously children need to be drawn out (but 'trained'? Not 
> so sure
> >>>>> about that!). I forget the exact age of this child, but he was
> >>>>> about 3 days old. My students are always surprised to see how
> >>>>> attentive and intent such a young baby can be.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>
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