Re: [xmca] Fwd: Purposes and processes of education

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Fascinating, Yuan.
I have ordered texts and now its up to me to do a lot of reading and
thinking.
Thanks for all for all your suggestions and help.
mike

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:20 PM, yuan lai <laiyuantaiwan@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’m no expert on Chinese cultural practices and schools of thought. My
> understanding of Daoism, after thinking about it for days, does not add to
> what others here have written. I did a few searches and found an article by
> Hayhoe and Li, "The Idea of a Normal University in the 21st Century",
> currently available at
> https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/17889
>
> It is about teacher education and has information on higher education in
> Chinese history. A few excerpts seem relevant:
>
> "The purpose of education and learning was defined as ‘to let one’s inborn
> virtue shine forth, to renew the people, and to rest in the highest good,’
> as stated in the Great Learning (Daxue), showing a harmonious integration
> between the individual good and the benefit of society (Lee, 2000:10-11).
> Education and learning were thus the first priority in any political agenda,
> as made explicit in the Theory of Education (Xueji), one part of Liji (the
> Book of Rites) in the Five Classics."
>
> "The first imperial institutions of higher learning (taixue) were
> established during the Western Han dynasty in 124 BCE, and these continued
> as an important part of the imperial government through changing dynasties
> up the last dynasty, the Qing. The purpose was to prepare scholar officials
> and the selection of teachers and students was thus serious, competitive and
> rigid. At first a system of recommendation was used, with teachers for the
> taixue, called “scholars of broad learning” (boshi), initially selected by
> local officials, then recommended by ministers and finally approved by the
> emperor himself. In the Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220 CE) an examination
> system was initiated and used along side of recommendation. This later
> developed into the famous civil service examination system (keju zhidu)
> which was formally established during the Sui Dynasty in 606 CE. Thereafter
> these examinations became the only way in which talented people could become
> teachers in the imperial institutions of higher learning or officials
> serving in other roles within the government."
>
> "China also had a long history of private higher education, going back to
> the 6th century BCE. During the Warring States period (475-221 BCE) private
> schools were so widespread, that many states saw them as a key strategy for
> attracting talented people for political purposes (Li, 1991a; 1991b). A
> striking example is the Jixia Academy, established by Duke Huan in the state
> of Qi in the third century BCE. At one time it had a population of more than
> ten thousand students and teachers. While it was an imperial higher
> institution, it was effectively private and provided space for many
> different schools to debate with and learn from each other, without any
> intervention from government."
>
> Mike, it seems that the short sections above in Hayhoe and Li would answer
> in part your questions on schooling and the government, purpose of
> education. If you were looking for information pertaining to the education
> of school-age children, I know that Three Character Classic is a primer that
> had been used to teach children about numbers, basic knowledge like the
> seasons, Chinese history, and Confucian teaching.
> http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=Sanzijing
>
> I guess the primer can be called a nursery rhyme. I believe that young
> children were first taught to recite before they got down to learning to
> read and write Chinese characters, if there were further opportunity to
> proceed. I found this short description which makes reference to
> ethnographic data.
>
> www.umich.edu/~aos/2003/aosabstracts2003.pdf<http://www.umich.edu/%7Eaos/2003/aosabstracts2003.pdf>
>
> “Zev Handel, University of Washington
>
> Examples of Text Recitations in the Old Reading Tradition of Xingtian
> Township, Wuyishan County, Fujian
>
> In November 2002 I carried out fieldwork on the Northern Min dialect spoken
> in the village of Chengcun. Two elderly residents of the village had been
> schooled in nearby Xingtian Township during the first half of the last
> century, where they learned to recite texts in the local reading
> pronunciation. I had the opportunity to record both speakers reciting the
> San Zi Jing (“Three Character Classic”) and the Bai Jia Xing (“Book of a
> Hundred Surnames”) in this nearly forgotten reading style. Transcription and
> analysis of these recitations reveals differences with modern colloquial
> pronunciation and provides a glimpse into vanishing linguistic and cultural
> traditions.”
>
> Another source has some information on the recitation method.
>
> www.isp.msu.edu/studiesonasia/s3_v1_n1/3_1_1LiYu.pdf
>
> “from the very beginning, reading was based on recognizing characters
> whose sounds the learner was already familiar with through repeated
> listening and recitation.” It also talks about a reason for the memorization
> method may be due to the fact that the classics were written in an old style
> of the language, which is quite different from the spoken language.
>
> Would the recitation method, either as an alternative way to receiving
> education, or a bridge to learning to read and write, constitute an example
> of what you were looking for (deliberate instructional practices that do not
> involve reading/writing)?
>
> Yuan
> On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:35 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think this speculation is correct, Tony and lets hope someone can help
>> us
>> know:
>>
>> "I would bet that they have been used over the centuries as media for
>> transmitting culture orally, through stories told by illiterate grown-ups
>> to
>> children who were not being schooled."
>>
>> Deliberate instruction is clearly not co-incident with literacy and
>> schooling (30+ children to one adult, print mediated). Infants are
>> deliberately (if not-so-effectively) instructed by parents.
>>
>> This is a great example of the belief that to study learning and
>> development
>> one has to study the history of these forms of change at several different
>> scales of time and synchronic scale.
>>
>> Wow.
>> mike
>>
>> parison between Confucian and Qin cultures is important.
>> >
>> > Confucius was a conservative reacting agains the "Legalists" (fa jia)
>> and
>> > others who were more state-oriented, versus Confucius' more traditional
>> > orientation to non-State social relations. Qin (Ch'in) was sort of a
>> triumph
>> > of State consolidation, and in that sense contrary to Confucianism.
>> >
>> > I guess the Han literati were trying to work out a synthesis of
>> Confucian
>> > culture with Imperial statism, although I haven't thought about this
>> before.
>> >
>> > Following on my previous post: As I think about this, I realize that my
>> > apartment is littered with children's booklets that I picked up in
>> Taipei in
>> > 1973. These are picture books with stories told in Chinese characters
>> paired
>> > with zhuyin fuhao phonetic spelling. These appear to be used as much for
>> > learning to read as for transmitting the stories. But the stories are
>> > familiar stories about virtuous, courageous, and heroic children, as
>> well as
>> > Aesop's fables type stuff, and the stories that are succinctly invoked
>> in
>> > (often four-syllable) "cheng-yu" (sayings that invoke familiar stories).
>> > Although I see these in written form, I would bet that they have been
>> used
>> > over the centuries as media for transmitting culture orally, through
>> stories
>> > told by illiterate grown-ups to children who were not being schooled.
>> >
>> > I'm speculating here. Does anybody here actually know?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, mike cole wrote:
>> >
>> >  Dear Colleagues-- I asked my Chinese colleague, huyi, who was visitor
>> at
>> >> UCSD, the same questions I asked you.  In note to him I emphasized that
>> >> one
>> >> question that
>> >> particularly interested me is the relation between the onset of formal
>> >> schooling and the invention of writing system and the governmental
>> >> structure. Here is his reply.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks very much David and Tony and Huyi for help in trying to puzzle
>> this
>> >> out.
>> >> A lot of think about. I was not emphasizing the exam issue, but that is
>> my
>> >> shortcoming because sorting "succeeders" from "failures" goes hand  in
>> >> glove
>> >> with formal education.
>> >>
>> >> Remembering Martin Luther King.
>> >> mike
>>
>> >>
>> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >> From: huyi <huyi1910@hotmail.com>
>> >> Date: 2010/1/17
>> >> Subject: RE: Purposes and processes of education
>> >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike,
>> >>
>> >> The formal education in China, what I meant is to some institutes
>> >> educating
>> >> people, could be dated from Xiang(âÔ) (BC 2000s) at the period of
>> >> Shun(Ë´). The time of schooling to governing is from Qin(ÇØ) Dynasty
>> (BC
>> >>
>> >> 200s), after Qin Shi Huang unified The Six Nations in China.
>> >>
>> >> Hu YI.
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:33:46 -0800
>>
>> >> Subject: Re: Purposes and processes of education
>> >> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> >> To: huyi1910@hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> When did formal education begin in China? How was start of schooling
>> >> related
>> >> to formation of centralized government and literacy? I know what I sent
>> >> was
>> >> ignorant.
>> >> I am ignorant on this topic!!
>> >> Your help is very welcome to me.
>> >> Thanks Hu Yi!
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >> 2010/1/17 huyi <huyi1910@hotmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> Mike,
>> >>
>> >> Your example didn't express the changes of Wang Anshi's educational
>> >> reform for the examation. The blank-filling of verses were only part of
>> >> the
>> >> test before his innovation. Acatually, in ancient China, the governer
>> >> selected the talents for adminstering the government through various
>> >> tests,
>> >> such as paper-writing, interviews, etc. At that time, education was
>> >> strongly related to the purpose of politics. From the time of Confucius
>> >> (BC
>> >> 551-479), there were some private-schools for educating people how to
>> be a
>> >> person in the socioty, especially how to act with other persons.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know what kind of papers you need for this? tell me more to see
>> >> what
>> >> I can do for your work.
>> >>
>> >> Hu Yi.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:04:09 -0800
>>
>> >>
>> >> Subject: Purposes and processes of education
>> >> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> CC: fffranksong@hotmail.com; huyi1910@hotmail.com
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Can anyone help point me to key resources to understand relation of
>> >> schooling practices
>> >> to society in ancient China and India?
>> >>
>> >> Are there any examples of deliberate instructional practices that do
>> not
>> >> involve reading/writing?
>> >>
>> >> David K-- It appears that education in China was closely linked to
>> >> governmental exam system, so one can read, for example, " Thirdly, so
>> far
>> >> as
>> >> content was concerned, while the earlier examinations laid much stress
>> on
>> >> the ancient classical texts, the great reformer Wang Anshi (1021 -
>> 1086)
>> >> advocated an innovation which was much more practical. He changed the
>> >> blank-filling of verses into composition about the verse, giving free
>> >> reign
>> >> to the ability of the candidates. However this was opposed by other
>> >> grandees
>> >> and did not last for long.
>> >>
>> >> And we know that the system is at least a couple of thousand year older
>> >> than
>> >> that.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry if this appears a naive question. There is a lot of expertise in
>> the
>> >> list and i need to make a quick study as background for some focused on
>> >> modern education and psychology.
>> >>
>> >> thanks to whomever.
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >> ¸ü¶àÈÈÀ±×ÊѶ¾¡ÔÚаæMSNÊ×Ò³£¡ Á¢¿Ì·ÃÎÊ£¡ <http://cn.msn.com/>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >> ËÑË÷±¾Ó¦ÊDzÊÉ«µÄ,¿ìÀ´ÌåÑéÐÂÒ»´úËÑË÷ÒýÇæ-±ØÓ¦,¾«ÃÀͼƬÿÌ컻Ŷ!
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>>
>> >>
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>> >>
>> > Tony Whitson
>> > UD School of Education
>> > NEWARK  DE  19716
>> >
>> > twhitson@udel.edu
>> > _______________________________
>> >
>> > "those who fail to reread
>> >  are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>> >                  -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>>
>> >
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