Re: [xmca] Fwd: Purposes and processes of education

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I think this speculation is correct, Tony and lets hope someone can help us
know:

"I would bet that they have been used over the centuries as media for
transmitting culture orally, through stories told by illiterate grown-ups to
children who were not being schooled."

Deliberate instruction is clearly not co-incident with literacy and
schooling (30+ children to one adult, print mediated). Infants are
deliberately (if not-so-effectively) instructed by parents.

This is a great example of the belief that to study learning and development
one has to study the history of these forms of change at several different
scales of time and synchronic scale.

Wow.
mike

parison between Confucian and Qin cultures is important.
>
> Confucius was a conservative reacting agains the "Legalists" (fa jia) and
> others who were more state-oriented, versus Confucius' more traditional
> orientation to non-State social relations. Qin (Ch'in) was sort of a triumph
> of State consolidation, and in that sense contrary to Confucianism.
>
> I guess the Han literati were trying to work out a synthesis of Confucian
> culture with Imperial statism, although I haven't thought about this before.
>
> Following on my previous post: As I think about this, I realize that my
> apartment is littered with children's booklets that I picked up in Taipei in
> 1973. These are picture books with stories told in Chinese characters paired
> with zhuyin fuhao phonetic spelling. These appear to be used as much for
> learning to read as for transmitting the stories. But the stories are
> familiar stories about virtuous, courageous, and heroic children, as well as
> Aesop's fables type stuff, and the stories that are succinctly invoked in
> (often four-syllable) "cheng-yu" (sayings that invoke familiar stories).
> Although I see these in written form, I would bet that they have been used
> over the centuries as media for transmitting culture orally, through stories
> told by illiterate grown-ups to children who were not being schooled.
>
> I'm speculating here. Does anybody here actually know?
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, mike cole wrote:
>
>  Dear Colleagues-- I asked my Chinese colleague, huyi, who was visitor at
>> UCSD, the same questions I asked you.  In note to him I emphasized that
>> one
>> question that
>> particularly interested me is the relation between the onset of formal
>> schooling and the invention of writing system and the governmental
>> structure. Here is his reply.
>>
>> Thanks very much David and Tony and Huyi for help in trying to puzzle this
>> out.
>> A lot of think about. I was not emphasizing the exam issue, but that is my
>> shortcoming because sorting "succeeders" from "failures" goes hand  in
>> glove
>> with formal education.
>>
>> Remembering Martin Luther King.
>> mike
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: huyi <huyi1910@hotmail.com>
>> Date: 2010/1/17
>> Subject: RE: Purposes and processes of education
>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> The formal education in China, what I meant is to some institutes
>> educating
>> people, could be dated from Xiang(âÔ) (BC 2000s) at the period of
>> Shun(Ë´). The time of schooling to governing is from Qin(ÇØ) Dynasty (BC
>>
>> 200s), after Qin Shi Huang unified The Six Nations in China.
>>
>> Hu YI.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:33:46 -0800
>> Subject: Re: Purposes and processes of education
>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> To: huyi1910@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> When did formal education begin in China? How was start of schooling
>> related
>> to formation of centralized government and literacy? I know what I sent
>> was
>> ignorant.
>> I am ignorant on this topic!!
>> Your help is very welcome to me.
>> Thanks Hu Yi!
>> mike
>>
>> 2010/1/17 huyi <huyi1910@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Your example didn't express the changes of Wang Anshi's educational
>> reform for the examation. The blank-filling of verses were only part of
>> the
>> test before his innovation. Acatually, in ancient China, the governer
>> selected the talents for adminstering the government through various
>> tests,
>> such as paper-writing, interviews, etc. At that time, education was
>> strongly related to the purpose of politics. From the time of Confucius
>> (BC
>> 551-479), there were some private-schools for educating people how to be a
>> person in the socioty, especially how to act with other persons.
>>
>> I don't know what kind of papers you need for this? tell me more to see
>> what
>> I can do for your work.
>>
>> Hu Yi.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:04:09 -0800
>>
>> Subject: Purposes and processes of education
>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> CC: fffranksong@hotmail.com; huyi1910@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> Can anyone help point me to key resources to understand relation of
>> schooling practices
>> to society in ancient China and India?
>>
>> Are there any examples of deliberate instructional practices that do not
>> involve reading/writing?
>>
>> David K-- It appears that education in China was closely linked to
>> governmental exam system, so one can read, for example, " Thirdly, so far
>> as
>> content was concerned, while the earlier examinations laid much stress on
>> the ancient classical texts, the great reformer Wang Anshi (1021 - 1086)
>> advocated an innovation which was much more practical. He changed the
>> blank-filling of verses into composition about the verse, giving free
>> reign
>> to the ability of the candidates. However this was opposed by other
>> grandees
>> and did not last for long.
>>
>> And we know that the system is at least a couple of thousand year older
>> than
>> that.
>>
>> Sorry if this appears a naive question. There is a lot of expertise in the
>> list and i need to make a quick study as background for some focused on
>> modern education and psychology.
>>
>> thanks to whomever.
>> mike
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> ¸ü¶àÈÈÀ±×ÊѶ¾¡ÔÚаæMSNÊ×Ò³£¡ Á¢¿Ì·ÃÎÊ£¡ <http://cn.msn.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> ËÑË÷±¾Ó¦ÊDzÊÉ«µÄ,¿ìÀ´ÌåÑéÐÂÒ»´úËÑË÷ÒýÇæ-±ØÓ¦,¾«ÃÀͼƬÿÌ컻Ŷ! Á¢¼´ÊÔÓã¡
>> <http://cn.bing.com/?form=CRMADS>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
> Tony Whitson
> UD School of Education
> NEWARK  DE  19716
>
> twhitson@udel.edu
> _______________________________
>
> "those who fail to reread
>  are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>                  -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca