Re: [xmca] Fwd: Purposes and processes of education

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Vera---- Barbara Rogoff has a whole series of papers on learning by intent
observation/participation that include evidence that kids from well educated
Anglo homes are lousy at it in a number of circumstances vis a vis kids from
rural Mexico. That is the meaning of my comment.

Yes, it is an important part of the process of enculturation. Part of my
goal in all of this is to figure out the relation of education to that of
enculturation, which I take to be the historically older and more inclusive
term. Maybe just my idiocyncracy!!

Re weaving: You must be referring to work of Greenfield. That is a different
set of issues. Not unrelated to be sure, but different.

Confusing, this email business!

We got some rain!! Yea. May it reach all the way to Santa Fe.
mike


On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Vera Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> I am a little confused about the hunting-gathering comment in your last
> message.Both hunting and gathering (just like weaving in Rogoff's work)
> require observational learning. The point is that this form of learning,
> while pervasive, as noted by Helen
> and Jean Lave among many others, is theoretically neglected because it is
> harder  to measure than reading scores. But it is, or should be, an
> important "process of education.." In my own case I failed to pay attention
> to it when working in N.Y. urban school, it became obvious when researching
> in Pueblo and Navajo communities. One possible reason was that the
> activities and work of adults and children are less separated
> Vera
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:23 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Fwd: Purposes and processes of education
>
>
>  The comments on learning to be intent observer fit Rogoff data.
>> For small hunter-gatherer societies, I am guessing that something like
>> apprenticeship is in a limited number of domains. Shamanism, midwifery
>> come
>> to
>> mind, but what else is plausible?
>>
>> Once we get to agriculture, the situation changes a lot, of course.
>> mike
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Worthen, Helena Harlow <
>> hworthen@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  Hello --
>>>
>>> The majority of hours of teaching and learning in the construction trades
>>> apprenticeship programs take place in on the job training. A
>>> plumber/pipefitter may have 1,000 hours of classroom training over 5
>>> years
>>> but may put in over 1,000 hours per year of OJT over that same 5 years.
>>> The
>>> ratios of OJT to classroom are about the same for other trades.
>>>
>>> I would agree with what Vera says about underdevelopment of observational
>>> skills. It takes practice both to learn how to watch someone work and to
>>> learn how to work in a way that someone watching can learn from. This is
>>> a
>>> set of practices that some journeymen are conscious of and others are
>>> oblivious to.
>>>
>>> Helena
>>>
>>> Helena Worthen
>>> Clinical Associate Professor
>>> Labor Education Program University of Illinois
>>> 504 East Armory, Champaign, IL 61820
>>> 217-244-4095
>>> hworthen@illinois.edu
>>> communicate/coordinate/cooperate/collaborate
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Vera Steiner
>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 12:59 PM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Fwd: Purposes and processes of education
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> There is a lot of apprenticeship education going on in Southwestern
>>> Native
>>> communities, whether in farming,
>>> pottery or jewelry  There are still multigenerational families known for
>>> their excellence in some of these crafts. The transmission of skills in
>>> these domains requires observational as well as verbal teaching/learning.
>>> The underdevelopment of observational skills in most Westernized schools
>>> by
>>> their  frequent exclusive focus on verbal teaching  is a questionable
>>> practice. It narrows the curriculum, the role of parents as contributors
>>> to
>>> education and learners' preparation for laboratory sciences.Including
>>> observational learning in our theories and curriculum is hard to achieve
>>> in
>>> these times of narrow, test-driven education, but these limitations are
>>> part
>>> of the challenges that fuel the energy of xmca participants.
>>> Vera
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tony Whitson" <twhitson@UDel.Edu>
>>> To: "mike cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>; "huyi"
>>> <huyi1910@hotmail.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Fwd: Purposes and processes of education
>>>
>>>
>>> >I should be going to bed now (NYC time zone), or else turning around
>>> >work
>>> >from advisees that I'm behind on; but this topic has got me going.
>>> >
>>> > Now I'm remembering one of my favorite short stories by the great 20th
>>> > century writer Lu Xun. I'm not remembering the title, but it depicts an
>>> > evening dramatic performance in a Chinese village. I am sure that this
>>> > sort of event has been going on for centuries. It would be a mode of
>>> > instruction for the young people; but it would be an activity that was
>>> not
>>> > happening solely or primarily for that "instructional" purpose. It was
>>> for
>>> > antertainment and socialization for adults, but the "instructional"
>>> > function would have also been salient, if not necessarily "deliberate."
>>> >
>>> > It seems to me one question here has to do with the degree to which it
>>> > matters if the activity is conducted specifically for its >
>>> "instructinal"
>>> > value.
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, 17 Jan 2010, mike cole wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I think this speculation is correct, Tony and lets hope someone can >>
>>> help
>>> >> us
>>> >> know:
>>> >>
>>> >> "I would bet that they have been used over the centuries as media for
>>> >> transmitting culture orally, through stories told by illiterate
>>> grown-ups
>>> >> to
>>> >> children who were not being schooled."
>>> >>
>>> >> Deliberate instruction is clearly not co-incident with literacy and
>>> >> schooling (30+ children to one adult, print mediated). Infants are
>>> >> deliberately (if not-so-effectively) instructed by parents.
>>> >>
>>> >> This is a great example of the belief that to study learning and
>>> >> development
>>> >> one has to study the history of these forms of change at several
>>> >> different
>>> >> scales of time and synchronic scale.
>>> >>
>>> >> Wow.
>>> >> mike
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>>
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