RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Andy,

I think this is very important and can creates a valid ground for social cristicism. But "what they see outside" must have something related with what people (that are in the outside) can/want shows too... Suppose that I could critize several problems in my country mediated by the notices I receive from your country, and the better situation there... But I never was actually there, I know the news mediate by signs from other people, your e-mails, notices by the web, tv, newspapers, if I have good lucky. Then, perhaps the "self determination" of my "own" critics about my country could be not independent from any kind of international "intervention", not necessarily in "conspiration" terms, nor "civil disobedience", etc. Mediated by the news I have with you, valuing it positively or negatively. In this case, we could not avoid dialogical process again in the inter-determination of Nations self-determination. Then we go from the quest for "truth" in theoretical traditions in psychology to the quest for and/or imposition of "truth" in International Law, and international hegemony relationships (you quote Afeganistan, I could quote Cuba, for instance, in recent past USA and URSS, and so on)... I can criticize myself only if I have other people in order to look to me with other eyes, and then in my consciousness I am another person to myself, as said Vygotsky... but, must exist this other person, that have his/her own values systems, political positions, cultural performances, and so on. Then I wonder: to what social scope we can refer with some kind of "self" criticizing our "own" culture? (...) In what terms can we difine those for who belongs a self-deffined culture? Who is the culture owner? A social person, a group, a nation, the humankind? Very difficult to decide. To who belongs human cultures and to who belongs criticizing responsibility... 

Achilles. 

> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:48:13 +1100
> From: ablunden@mira.net
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
> 
> Amartya Sen made an interesting observation on critique and 
> relativism. He answered the charge that there were no 
> absolute standards of right from which a culture could be 
> judged (e.g. "oppression of women in Afghanistan cannot be 
> criticised because it is part of their culture"), by 
> pointing out that there is always some possibility for 
> people within a culture to see what things are like in the 
> outside world, no matter how much a government tries to 
> isolate people, and that there will always be some people in 
> a culture who can base themselves on what they see outside 
> to criticize their "own" culture. This possibility creates a 
> valid ground for social criticism.
> 
> Andy
> 
> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > Larry, I agree with you. Because of the own nature of the conversation process, this not means that I can understand all the semantic relations, sense formations implied in you statements, all the voices that are present in your intervention. I have no all your knowledge. But seems to be really near from what I am thinking at this moment. Critical thinking demands put in challenge our own prior conceptions, and conversation can promote a meeting with the cultural alterity that have the potential to reorganize something in our own worldview - despite this can not occurs without some previous cultural rules too, some of wich we can not exactly choice or arbitrarily change. Conversation demands some ethics of the discourse too, and the history of human construction of the basic and advanced principles to this ethics is a very long an not hamornic process too. See the evident problem of "Truth" as a social device to silence the voices of cultural differences, and non-official 
> world views along the "démarche" of civilization. "We are not talking about relativism but rather Discourses" - yes, I understand that talking about Discourses means tho talk about the own conditions of possibility to things such as "relativistic", "dogmatic", and/or "dialogical" discursive social process... Of course this is not an exhaustive tipology, and the "tipification" can not be the establishing of impenetrable discursive modalities... To label discursive modalities, even do not solves the problem of their genesis and dynamics, functioning, structure, etc.  But, for the moment, if I could stay more near to dialogical practices, I will feel more coherent with Vygotsky's legacy, for instance, of course... This is a personal and professional desire and challenge to me, not really an aprioristic condition - beyond this, the totality of social, cultural, historical conditions to belong to any discursive reality are something far to be an exclusively individual choice... B
> ut now I am turning my words almost to a melancholic fashion, and this was not my goal at the principle, nor at any time. :-)
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you for all your contribution.
> > 
> > Achilles
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:51:29 -0800
> >> From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> >> Subject: Re: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >> Achilles
> >> Thanks for your response and dialogue about "traditions"  My term "conversations" was suggested as an experience-near and personal way way of expressing an intuition I have about this dynamic process.  The term "dialogue does point to the wisdom in the "tradition" we are articulating and elaborating and it captures the essence of what I was expressing in the term "conversation"
> >> Your elaboration of the COMPLEXITY of all the variables that must be considered within dialogue does speak to the emergence of CRITICAL THINKING as entertaining various perspectives.  I agree with you that we are not talking about relativism but rather Discourses
> >>
> >> Larry
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >> Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010 4:13 pm
> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >>> Interesting, Mike... I had in mind some questions from Bakhtin's 
> >>> "Problems of Dostoevsky's Poetics" -despite I don't remember now 
> >>> the exact chapter (I can check soon)... I understand both 
> >>> Vygotsky and Bakhtin have a kind of "family air" and some common 
> >>> roots in a dialogical "tradition" -perhaps because something 
> >>> "socratic" influences (Vygotsky's education with Solomon 
> >>> Ashpiz... Bakhtin's explicit prizes to the Socrates from the 
> >>> streets, not yet sterilized by monological doutrinary platonic 
> >>> proposes, etc. - this is at the chapter forth), but probably not 
> >>> only by this way... Dialetics has a science of/discourse about 
> >>> the world contradictions and/or permanent movement and 
> >>> transformation, is at the very beginning very close to the 
> >>> dialetics as an "Art of the dialog" too, in may way of view (see 
> >>> the "Logos" for Heraclitus). I don´t know if this is a correct 
> >>> supposition of mine. When you talk about the "heterocronic" 
> >>> (Valsiner and van der Veer terms, I guess), non-linear, chats, 
> >>> in which we participate here, for instance, this leads my 
> >>> imagination too something about that "socratic dialog" 
> >>> discursive gender IN THE STREETS - what you can interpret in 
> >>> some "ethnomethodogical" gender to make science and education 
> >>> too, if you wish... But, now and here, not exactly at the 
> >>> streets ("dromos") but at unprovable international "info-ways" :-
> >>> )   
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Achilles (The Menon's slave).
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:37:11 -0800
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
> >>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> Very interesting thread.
> >>>> I was struck by the following, Achilles:
> >>>> You write
> >>>> He thought that a better way is dialog itself, the true is not 
> >>> with me, not
> >>>> with you, and not with nobody and/or with everybody - the 
> >>> truth can
> >>>> historicaly emerge in.....
> >>>>
> >>>> This is very reminiscent of Vygotsky way of talking about 
> >>> consciousness at
> >>>> the end of Thinking and Speech.
> >>>>
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Larry,I think that all you said is about many crucial 
> >>> problems to us,
> >>>>> not only related to the history of a (plural) "way of 
> >>> thinking" in
> >>>>> psychology, but related to all our historical-cultural 
> >>> conditions as human
> >>>>> beings too. Vygotsky, I understand loved the the "Truth", 
> >>> and the search for
> >>>>> the "Truth", it is something that we can see in one of his 
> >>> letters to Luria
> >>>>> (1926), after even quoted by Valsiner and van der Veer, and 
> >>> by Veresov too:
> >>>>> "For me the primary question is the question of method, that 
> >>> is for me the
> >>>>> question of truth…" - but even understand the actual meaning 
> >>> of such a word
> >>>>> as "truth" is not a easy task, because of the own polissemic 
> >>> character of
> >>>>> it, because there is obstinate fights about what this word 
> >>> can mean in
> >>>>> different social contexts, because this meaning is not 
> >>> independent from a
> >>>>> "second" (a concrete situated interlocutor) and from a 
> >>> "third" (an anonymous
> >>>>> and generic social interlocutor in the time in that this 
> >>> word is said and
> >>>>> beyond, projecting it in time, in future, in the "Great 
> >>> Temporality" - in
> >>>>> Bakhtin words again)... But, in my naive reading, I guess 
> >>> that the was, at
> >>>>> least two traditions in Vygotsky's concept of "truth", the 
> >>> spinozian (with
> >>>>> the statement that there is nothing totally unkowing in 
> >>> Nature, i.e., in all
> >>>>> that exist, in all that embraces reality), and, of course, 
> >>> the marxian (with
> >>>>> the statement that the question of objective truth is not 
> >>> only a discursive
> >>>>> rhetoric task, but mainly a question of praxis, therefore a 
> >>> question of
> >>>>> actual transformation of the reality we try to explain with 
> >>> our words)...
> >>>>> Then if Vygotsky did not leaves out the concept and the 
> >>> desire of a truth, I
> >>>>> guess this is not in a classical, platonic and/or scholastic 
> >>> fashion> > (tradition?) to approach this problem. I understand 
> >>> that this is not a
> >>>>> peripheral problem in Vygotsky's though and project to 
> >>> historical-cultural
> >>>>> psychology. But this can create several disputes, inside the 
> >>> arena of the
> >>>>> signs "truth", "method", and even "heuristics", for sure. 
> >>> The heuristic
> >>>>> problem, in sense of construction of paths to construct 
> >>> knowledge about
> >>>>> human condition and/or permanent transformation of that 
> >>> (social)condition,> > the methodological problem, in the same 
> >>> sense, seems to be almost always in
> >>>>> the forefront in Vygotsky's concerns... If we can understand 
> >>> better the
> >>>>> social (complex, non-linear) formation of a trend of 
> >>> thinking in twenty
> >>>>> century Russian (and International) psychology, it is 
> >>> reasonable suppose
> >>>>> that we would can understand better another cultural 
> >>> collective movements of
> >>>>> creation of discourses and practices mediated by them. 
> >>> Particularly I wonder
> >>>>> that dialogic criteria to search the "truth" is very useful 
> >>> too. Bakhtin, in
> >>>>> this sense, is against not only "dogmatic" concept of truth, 
> >>> but even
> >>>>> against "relativistic" one... He though that a better way is 
> >>> dialog itself,
> >>>>> the true is not with me, not with you, and not with nobody 
> >>> an/or with
> >>>>> everybody - the truth can historicaly emerges in dialogical 
> >>> process... In
> >>>>> this sense, the different versions for the historical facts 
> >>> must not be
> >>>>> simply sawed as many equally true versions, in their inner 
> >>> logic and
> >>>>> structure all equally valid (relativistic approach), nor a 
> >>> question> > exclusively about there are people lying when other 
> >>> are telling the real and
> >>>>> unquestionable truth (dogmatic approach) - but the fight 
> >>> between different
> >>>>> versions itself can be the own embodiment of the possible 
> >>> historical truth
> >>>>> to construct. But methodologically it is really not easy, to 
> >>> put in fight
> >>>>> that confrontation of the versions of the facts, even more 
> >>> many facts are
> >>>>> not like a meteorological happening to which people can say 
> >>> "It was a little
> >>>>> breath" and/or "it was a big torment" and then we must 
> >>> return to objective
> >>>>> fact to prove two versions and find the real true. Of course 
> >>> in history, in
> >>>>> psychology, the things are not in this fashion, because the 
> >>> own "versions"
> >>>>> becomes constitutive of the "facts" (i.e. what we call 
> >>> "version" is a
> >>>>> "discursive fact", an "speech act", etc.), and we are not in 
> >>> a very
> >>>>> comfortable position to decide. The textual analysis, the 
> >>> hermeneutic and
> >>>>> exegetic tools are very important and very useful and 
> >>> absolutely necessary
> >>>>> in this impossible mission, of course. But even this 
> >>> methodology to
> >>>>> understand the texts is constituted by some believes that we 
> >>> have/acquire> > about what is the "text", what is "meaning", 
> >>> what is "reality", "truth" and
> >>>>> "lies", and who is the "subject" that produces this things 
> >>> in his/her social
> >>>>> relations, cultural contexts, etc... These believes about 
> >>> how to do our
> >>>>> hermeneutic task are historically constituted too, are not 
> >>> outside history,
> >>>>> supra-positioned respect the own text, in any sense, this 
> >>> exegetical> > tradition is some kind of recreation of original 
> >>> texts too, and a new verse
> >>>>> to the play that must goes on, a part of the "tradition" 
> >>> (and contradiction)
> >>>>> too. Self-consciousness of this exegetic limit (to be a 
> >>> historical been in
> >>>>> the same time when we are trying to decode historical 
> >>> encrypted messages)
> >>>>> seems to be an interesting step... Because in future can 
> >>> will exist many
> >>>>> researchers telling about the lies we are just telling 
> >>> today. Even so, in a
> >>>>> "vygotskian tradition" we can not absolutely abdicate the 
> >>> quest for truth...
> >>>>> To do this can be to make a choice that will represent a 
> >>> more deep rupture
> >>>>> with the former project (if the existence of a "project" is 
> >>> not only an
> >>>>> illusion of my own mind), in my modest opinion.Achilles
> >>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 10:36:28 -0800
> >>>>>> From: lpurss@shaw.ca
> >>>>>> Subject: Re:  Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something 
> >>> in English?
> >>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Achilles
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Your questions are fascinating as an inquiry of the 
> >>> constructs or
> >>>>> heuristic processes of emerging "traditions" "schools of thought"
> >>>>> "paradigms" "Discourses" as cultural patterns which we 
> >>> articulate and
> >>>>> INHABIT.
> >>>>>> When you mention Freud, the extensive literature that has 
> >>> developed> > exploring the formation of a "tradition" of 
> >>> psychoanalysis as a sociological
> >>>>> and cultural "way of knowing" is informative of 
> >>> epistemological ways of
> >>>>> creating knowledge. How different versions of the "truth"are 
> >>> contested and
> >>>>> "true believers" who are arguing for a specific version (as 
> >>> "dogma")  make
> >>>>> validity claims  of CERTAINTY for their "true" version 
> >>> (as they believe
> >>>>> Freud saw the world) is a process of narrative construction 
> >>> worth studying
> >>>>> in its own right. In fact the sociology of knowledge is a 
> >>> "tradition which
> >>>>> does just that.
> >>>>>> In exploring Vygotsky's contribution to a new emerging 
> >>> "perspective" or
> >>>>> vantage point from which to "see" human "nature" the same 
> >>> processes are at
> >>>>> PLAY.
> >>>>>> The metaphor that best captures the DYNAMIC PROCESS at 
> >>> play in the
> >>>>> creation or construction of "traditions" seems to be the 
> >>> metaphor of
> >>>>> CONVERSATION (as the process of sharing particular 
> >>> perspectives not to
> >>>>> confirm your particular perspective but as a conscious 
> >>> process that a THIRD
> >>>>> perspective that is NOVEL and emerges within the open space 
> >>> of the
> >>>>> conversation is constructed and each participants version 
> >>> (which is held
> >>>>> tentatively as a FALLIBLE perspective) is enlarged as each 
> >>> conversant's> > "horizon of understanding" is expanded.
> >>>>>> The part that I'm curious about (in my ZPD) is how to 
> >>> create social
> >>>>> structures where this fallible position can be nurtured and 
> >>> the vitality of
> >>>>> conversation as creating THIRDNESS replaces the need for 
> >>> "traditions" as
> >>>>> locations of dogma as "truth".
> >>>>>> It is this SENSIBILITY towards "knowing" within the CHAT 
> >>> collective (in
> >>>>> contrast to SENSE) that I appreciate so much as a place 
> >>> which invites an
> >>>>> open space to generate THIRDNESS. ( I apologize if I'm using 
> >>> this term in a
> >>>>> way that muddles other conceptions of thirdness such as 
> >>> Peirce) "Thirdness"
> >>>>> as a spirit of inquiry does capture the spirit of NOVELTY 
> >>> created in
> >>>>> communities of inquiry.
> >>>>>> It also helps to explain when thirdness collapses into 
> >>> CERTAINTY and
> >>>>> scholars such as Freud or Vygotsky get locked into dogmatic 
> >>> traditions.> > > The question to be answered is how do we keep 
> >>> "traditions" open to
> >>>>> novelty in a spirit of thirdness.
> >>>>>> Larry
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:03 am
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
> >>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>> As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral
> >>>>>>> psychology and the
> >>>>>>> his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students
> >>>>>>> because one of
> >>>>>>> the compulsory tasks was to read "  Thinking and Speech"
> >>>>>>> and to be examined
> >>>>>>> fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s
> >>>>>>> "Problems of
> >>>>>>> development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's 
> >>> "Basics of
> >>>>>>> Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas  quite
> >>>>>>> explicitly. Is this an
> >>>>>>> expression of cultural-historical tradition?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bella Kotik
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole
> >>>>>>> <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly 
> >>> "non-liner
> >>>>>>> genetic> course
> >>>>>>>> or history."  For many complex reasons Vygotsky 
> >>> "missed"> > > > the dominant trend
> >>>>>>>> of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that
> >>>>>>> anticipated the
> >>>>>>>> turn
> >>>>>>>> away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in 
> >>> USA until late
> >>>>>>>> 1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream
> >>>>>>> psychology to cultural
> >>>>>>>> studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human 
> >>> potential> > > > movements) so
> >>>>>>>> that when
> >>>>>>>> Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly
> >>>>>>> idiocyncratic> interpretation fell like a match into a 
> >>> pool of
> >>>>>>> gasoline (that looked for
> >>>>>>>> all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
> >>>>>>>> explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have
> >>>>>>> written about,
> >>>>>>>> and that so irritate many, was the result.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Its really a fascinating process to have lived through,
> >>>>>>> contributed to,
> >>>>>>>> been guilty of, etc.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the
> >>>>>>> globe as easily,
> >>>>>>>> or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread...... 
> >>> while others
> >>>>>>> starve.>
> >>>>>>>> Non linear for sure.
> >>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari 
> >>> Junior <
> >>>>>>>>  achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I am not historicist, but I can remember something from
> >>>>>>> Benjamin about
> >>>>>>>>> "tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition 
> >>> is not always
> >>>>>>>>> conservative nor authoritarian, there are 
> >>> democratic, dialogical,
> >>>>>>>>> revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in 
> >>> addition - that
> >>>>>>> perhaps> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any cultural
> >>>>>>> tradition, in diverse
> >>>>>>>>> fields of society collective actions) can have a non-liner
> >>>>>>> genetic course
> >>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>> history... I dont know if this is terminologically 
> >>> possible> > > > or adequate.
> >>>>>>>> But
> >>>>>>>>> a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or
> >>>>>>> "perspective" (has some
> >>>>>>>>> people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural
> >>>>>>> perspective") - can not
> >>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>> like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any
> >>>>>>> doubts if even
> >>>>>>>>> religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time 
> >>> without any
> >>>>>>> secular> > influences and changes to dialog with broader
> >>>>>>> cultural contexts, etc.).
> >>>>>>>> In
> >>>>>>>>> this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis 
> >>> could be
> >>>>>>> understood as
> >>>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>> strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures 
> >>> all the time,
> >>>>>>>> dissidences,
> >>>>>>>>> detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.). 
> >>> Scientific> > > > thought> > presupposes changes as a sine qua 
> >>> non condition of
> >>>>>>> its own existence...
> >>>>>>>> Of
> >>>>>>>>> course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual,
> >>>>>>> cultural, legacy
> >>>>>>>>> ("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous, 
> >>> intermittent, sometimes
> >>>>>>>> enigmatic,
> >>>>>>>>> character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it 
> >>> is very
> >>>>>>> eminent.> There
> >>>>>>>>> are several important intellectual disputes about 
> >>> the "correct
> >>>>>>>>> interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But 
> >>> how can
> >>>>>>> we name this
> >>>>>>>>> historical process? Is there something in this that 
> >>> can have
> >>>>>>> the same
> >>>>>>>> name?
> >>>>>>>>> Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture? 
> >>> A name
> >>>>>>> never can be
> >>>>>>>>> only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name 
> >>> of the
> >>>>>>> Journal is
> >>>>>>>> really
> >>>>>>>>> worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in
> >>>>>>> thought and
> >>>>>>>> language
> >>>>>>>>> relations). People sometimes use names, words, has 
> >>> sign of some
> >>>>>>>> collective
> >>>>>>>>> identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of
> >>>>>>> social actors...
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>> is far to be something harmonious or ideally synergistic,
> >>>>>>> but exist some
> >>>>>>>>> need to stay in touch with persons that have some common
> >>>>>>> interests,> mainly
> >>>>>>>>> common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a
> >>>>>>> tradition, now I
> >>>>>>>> already
> >>>>>>>>> don't if is the more important question.
> >>>>>>>>> Achilles.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in 
> >>> English?> > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if it is
> >>>>>>> interesting. Does
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>> exist in Russian, Anton?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I disagree with only one part of what you say about
> >>>>>>>> "cultural-historical"
> >>>>>>>>>> school never existing. In the period from about 1956
> >>>>>>> following Stalin's
> >>>>>>>>>> death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there 
> >>> was an
> >>>>>>> identifiable> > group
> >>>>>>>>>> of people who met together, talked together, shared
> >>>>>>> certain ideas and
> >>>>>>>>>> values. They were also quite influential as heads 
> >>> of some
> >>>>>>> departments> and
> >>>>>>>>>> institutes. They did not all agree with each other
> >>>>>>> (Achille's evocation
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev was both
> >>>>>>> feared and
> >>>>>>>>> distanced
> >>>>>>>>>> from the others, but they maintained a kind of uneasy
> >>>>>>> alliance. Here I
> >>>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>>> include
> >>>>>>>>>> Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova, and 
> >>> perhaps> > > > a few
> >>>>>>>> others.
> >>>>>>>>>> It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of
> >>>>>>> cultural-historical
> >>>>>>>>>> psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
> >>>>>>>>>> mike (socio-cultural-historical activity scholar) 
> >>> :-))
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles Delari 
> >>> Junior <
> >>>>>>>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I really understand... Maybe we can say that Vygotsky
> >>>>>>> himself was
> >>>>>>>>> notever
> >>>>>>>>>>> following his own "project"... In some documents
> >>>>>>> (letters) he
> >>>>>>>>> expresshis
> >>>>>>>>>>> desire to dedicate to an species of "cause", the
> >>>>>>> "reconstruction of
> >>>>>>>>>>> allpsychological science, building an unified 
> >>> approach,> > > > but I really
> >>>>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>>>>> that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu, nor 
> >>> no "vigotskian
> >>>>>>>> school"
> >>>>>>>>> in a
> >>>>>>>>>>> very definitefashion... Even more to read 
> >>> Vygotsky is
> >>>>>>> hard exegetical
> >>>>>>>>> task,
> >>>>>>>>>>> his all workseems to be a kind of complex 
> >>> million pieces
> >>>>>>> puzzle, at
> >>>>>>>>> least
> >>>>>>>>>>> for us non Russianreaders... I dont know... But when
> >>>>>>> everybody lies,
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>> need
> >>>>>>>>>>> to think aboutmethodological tools to define if 
> >>> there is
> >>>>>>> a possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we can be
> >>>>>>> satisfied with
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> impossibility of any truth inany social 
> >>> discourse... In
> >>>>>>> capitalists> > liberal
> >>>>>>>>>>> regimes, people can tell some liesin order to satisfy
> >>>>>>> editorial needs
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> market demands too... financial researchfounds 
> >>> to their(our)
> >>>>>>>> projects,
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> so on. Then, nobody is without guilt... inthis great
> >>>>>>> social game for
> >>>>>>>>>>> personal success in unequal power relationships, 
> >>> between> > > > nations,> > between
> >>>>>>>>>>> institutions, between groups, persons, or evenbetween
> >>>>>>> brothers at the
> >>>>>>>>> same
> >>>>>>>>>>> home...
> >>>>>>>>>>> :-(
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best wishes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – 
> >>> something in English?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Same thing. No answer. Special research needed.
> >>>>>>> Everybody lies.
> >>>>>>>> From
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1930s -- onwards.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, note: "Cultural-historical tradition" sensu
> >>>>>>> Vygotsky never
> >>>>>>>>> existed.
> >>>>>>>>>>> And hardly exists today.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
> >>>>>>> <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > To: 
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 
> >>> 12:59:24 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – 
> >>> something in English?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Anton,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This sounds much better! :-)Thank you very 
> >>> much. And
> >>>>>>> about this
> >>>>>>>>>>> title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М. 
> >>> Соловьева, Ж.И.
> >>>>>>> Шиф, Т.В.
> >>>>>>>>> Розановой
> >>>>>>>>>>> и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from the 
> >>> 1930s...> > > > What you
> >>>>>>>>> recommends?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I found an recent Russian publication from 2006,{
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I did 
> >>> not feel
> >>>>>>> secure to
> >>>>>>>>> order
> >>>>>>>>>>> in my blind condition tounderstand the book importance
> >>>>>>> or relation to
> >>>>>>>>>>> historical-cultural tradition...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – 
> >>> something in
> >>>>>>> English?> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> RE: Its important to know that it is not 
> >>> near to
> >>>>>>> Vygotsky's> trends.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said so. I guess I meant to state 
> >>> that the
> >>>>>>> connection is
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>> obvious and requires substantial textual analysis.
> >>>>>>> Especially so,
> >>>>>>>> given
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet
> >>>>>>> Psychology from the
> >>>>>>>>> 1930s
> >>>>>>>>>>> onwards...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
> >>>>>>> <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > To: 
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 
> >>> 2010 12:12:00 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – 
> >>> something in
> >>>>>>> English?> > > > > >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand.Thank you very much.I saw that 
> >>> there is
> >>>>>>> something> from
> >>>>>>>>> her
> >>>>>>>>>>> about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its important
> >>>>>>> to know that
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> not near to Vygotsky's trends.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21 -0800
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – 
> >>> something in
> >>>>>>> English?> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally strongly doubt any 
> >>> translation of
> >>>>>>> this book ever
> >>>>>>>>>>> existed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck anyway!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- However, there is other stuff by Shif 
> >>> available> > > > in English,
> >>>>>>>>> but it
> >>>>>>>>>>> is hardly related to her Leningrad work and represent
> >>>>>>> her later
> >>>>>>>> Moscow
> >>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>> in defectology...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
> >>>>>>> <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > > To: 
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 
> >>> 2010 2:37:26 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – 
> >>> something in English?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi XMCA
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people…
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help another friend of mine, biologist, studying
> >>>>>>> scientific> > concepts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, I’m wonder if you have any notice
> >>>>>>> about English
> >>>>>>>>>>> (Spanish, French,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) publication from the following text:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh ponyatii u 
> >>> schko’nika:> > > > > > > > > > > Issledovanie k voprosu 
> >>> umstvenogo razvitiya
> >>>>>>> shkol’nika pri
> >>>>>>>>> obuchenii
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> obshchestvovedeniyu” [The development of
> >>>>>>> scientific concepts in
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> school
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> child: The investigation of intellectual
> >>>>>>> development of the
> >>>>>>>>> school
> >>>>>>>>>>> child in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social science instruction]. Moscow – Leningrad:
> >>>>>>>> Gosudarstvennoe
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe Izdatel’stvo. 1935.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m trying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Russian high now, but we are not so prepared
> >>>>>>> to actually
> >>>>>>>>>>> translate Russian so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, without a huge time spending… And 
> >>> there are
> >>>>>>> many other
> >>>>>>>>> Russian
> >>>>>>>>>>> needs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior at the schedule, most of that already
> >>>>>>> provide thanks you
> >>>>>>>>> all.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have any notice... :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very much. Good 2010 for all.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wishes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Achilles.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > > > > > O Novo Windows 7 funciona do jeito que você quer.
> >>>>>>> Clique aqui
> >>>>>>>>> para
> >>>>>>>>>>> conhecer!
> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539_______________________________________________>> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________________________> > >
> >>>>>>>>> The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier.
> >>>>>>>>  Optimized
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> Yahoo!  Get it Now for Free! at
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________> > >
> >>>>>>>> Deixe seu computador compatível com a sua vida. Clique para
> >>>>>>>>> conhecer o
> >>>>>>>>>>> Windows 7!
> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539_______________________________________________>> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________________________> > >
> >>>>>>>> Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new
> >>>>>>>> Internet
> >>>>>>>>>>> Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for 
> >>> Free! at
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________> > >
> >>>>>>> Agora é fácil compartilhar fotos no Messenger: solte 
> >>> todas na
> >>>>>>>>> janelinha.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Veja como!
> >>> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/tip.aspx/view/77?product=2&ocid=CRM-WindowsLive:dicaCompartilhamentoFotos:Tagline:WLCRM:On:WL:pt-BR:Messenger
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> __________________________________________________________________> > > > > > > > > Connect with friends from any web browser - no
> >>>>>>> download required.
> >>>>>>>> Try
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________> > >
> >>>>>> O Novo Windows 7 funciona do jeito que você quer. Clique 
> >>> aqui para
> >>>>>>>>>>> conhecer!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539> >
> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________> > > > > > O Novo Windows 7 funciona do jeito que você quer. Clique
> >>>>>>> aqui para
> >>>>>>>>> conhecer!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539> >
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>>> Com o Windows 7 nenhum arquivo vai se esconder de você. 
> >>> Clique para
> >>>>> conhecer !
> >>>>>
> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539> >
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>                                                
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> Sabia que você tem 25Gb de armazenamento grátis na web? Conheça 
> >>> o Skydrive agora.
> >>> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/5?ocid=CRM-WindowsLive:produtoSkyDrive:Tagline:WLCRM:On:WL:pt-BR:SkyDrive
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >  		 	   		  
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Com o Windows 7 nenhum arquivo vai se esconder de você. Clique para conhecer !
> > http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hegel Summer School
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss10.htm
> Hegel, Goethe and the Planet: 13 February 2010.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
 		 	   		  
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