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Re: [xmca] Consciousness, Piaget
- To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
- Subject: Re: [xmca] Consciousness, Piaget
- From: Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
- Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:47:12 -0700
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Here is a quote from Lenin that discusses and agrees with Martin's
point about the material basis of consciousness.
"This is materialism: matter acting upon our sense-organs produces
sensation. Sensation depends on the brain, nerves, retina, etc., i.e.,
on matter organised in a definite way. The existence of matter does
not depend on sensation. Matter is primary. Sensation, thought,
consciousness are the supreme product of matter organised in a
particular way. Such are the views of materialism in general, and of
Marx and Engels in particular."
- from V.I. Lenin, Materialism and Empirio-Criciticism, Chapter One:
The Theory of Knowledge of Empirio-Criticism and of Dialectical
Materialism. Section 2. “The Discovery of the World-Elements”
Cheers,
- Steve
On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Martin Packer wrote:
I don't know how I'm to have a heated debate with Andy when he keeps
going to bed in the middle of the day! This was written for/to
him, and he can read it when he wakes up, but I need to send it
before I go to bed, or the flux will leave me all washed up.
My sources inform me that MEC dates from 1908, when Lenin had read
neither Hegel nor Kant. He had of course read Marx carefully and
with insight, and he was able to get up to speed very rapidly when
he did read Hegel's Logic. I am sure that MEC is full of rich
insights - but I don't think this way of writing about Cs can get us
very far.
Don't forget that in the Crisis LSV used Lenin's "epistemological
formula" (that what is material is what exists outside Cs) to argue
that Cs itself is material! His argument is that "self-
consciousness is the consciousness of consciousness. And
consciousness can exist without self-consciousness." I am less
impressed by the success of this application of the test than I am
by LSV's goal. To argue that Cs is material is impressive and
thought-provoking. I actually think that LSV was actually correct,
but the fact that he could put Lenin's test to this use surely shows
the latter's shaky nature.
For example, to write that material reality is what exists
independently of Cs is really misleading. At the very least we need
to add immediately "but Cs does not exist independent of material
reality." Lenin writes as though Cs were not a property of material
beings. Cs emerges in certain kinds of material organization; this
is hardly its "independence."
I actually think Kant would have been proud of Lenin. After all, in
Kant's view Cs can contain things-as-they appear; things-in-
themselves must always lie outside Cs. As you well know, Hegel
rejected this as specious nonsense.
I've tried to stay out of this thread, because it's a difficult
topic and I'm no philosopher (though I can't seem to put their
damned books down!). But my 2 cents, for what they'll buy, are that
one needs to begin with an acknowledgement that Cs is, as I said in
my last message, relational. I don't mean by this that it is a
relationship between mind and matter, I mean that Cs is a
relationship between matter and matter. I think we'd all agree that
Cs is a property, an aspect, only of living organisms. I completely
agreed with your earlier post, Andy, that Cs is not simply present
or absent but is a matter of degree or type. My favorite Hegel is
the phenomenology, which is a story about the education of Cs over
time. So not all living organisms have the same kind of Cs, and
humans don't all have the same kind, of have one kind all their
lives. Cs develops. But it is always to be found in interaction
between organisms (material) and other material stuff.
Martin
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