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Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Saussure
- To: "ex >> \"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity\"" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
- Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and Saussure
- From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:43:23 +1000
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Martin,
Believe me, I don't need to be convinced of the importance
of language. My interest is exclusively methodological. And
I love linguists and would never dream of besmirching their
trade.
Marx was a revolutionary, so he wrote a book on capital, and
titled it "Capital", and he had multiple attempts at the job
from 1844 to 1859 before he hit upon the idea of beginning
his book from the Commodity.
The difference between artefact-mediated action and word
meaning is much the same as the difference between commodity
and (actually not Capital, but) money. And as it happens
word meaning is an example, a special case of
"artefact-mediated action."
Hegel was interested in the State, because of the stateless
character of the Germany he grew up in. He wrote his book on
the state, but it began not with State, or Right, but
Possession. The relations are the same.
Here is the passage from the LSVCW translation of T&S I use
about "microcosm":
“Consciousness is reflected in the word like the sun is
reflected in a droplet of water. The word is a microcosm of
consciousness, related to consciousness like a living cell
is related to an organism, like an atom is related to the
cosmos. The meaningful word is a microcosm of human
consciousness.”
That's why the psychologist (not linguist) VYgotsky wrote a
book about thinking and speaking. I am concerned with the
difference between microcosm and unit, that's all. The atom
is not the unit of analysis of the cosmos, or the individual
person the unit of analysis of society. In praising Pavlov
he also says:
"When our Marxists explain the Hegelian principle in Marxist
methodology they rightly claim that each thing can be
examined as a microcosm, as a universal measure in which the
whole big world is reflected. On this basis they say that to
study one single thing, one subject, one phenomenon until
the end, exhaustively, means to know the world in all its
connections. In this sense it can be said that each person
is to some degree a measure of the society, or rather class,
to which he belongs, for the whole totality of social
relationships is reflected in him."
I won't deny that these quotes contain plenty of room for
methodological confusion and ambiguity! They are not at all
clear. So I have to go on Marx. The Marx of "Theses on
Feuerbach" which says not a word about language, and the
Marx who said (somewhat oversimplistically):
"The hand-mill gives you society with the feudal lord; the
steam-mill society with the industrial capitalist."
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
Andy,
In Problems of Child Development LSV writes that language shatters the
unity of infant and world. Your examples of the painter and gymnast help
us recognize that this rupture cannot be complete or final. Both are
kinds of work in which successful practice depends on an embodied
embeddedness in concrete reality.
But at the same time I think LSV is right to write of rupture, and of
the importance of language. First, he's right to insist that the child
is born embedded, and so he rejects the built-in mind/world dualism that
is presupposed by cognitive science. But, second, he's right to say that
in development this immediacy is disrupted so that a mind is formed. The
preschool age child is a dynamic part of their situation and responds
without pause to its demands. The school age child, he writes, has lost
this spontaneity. Language changes the child's relationship to the world
in large part by picking out aspects of the situation as a distinct
(kind of) 'thing.' It comes 'between' person and world, is an important
part of the child's differentiation from other people, and soon will be
the basis for a division between 'inner' and 'outer' aspects of the
child's personality, dividing her from herself.
A good gymnast or painter finds ways to suspend or overcome or forget
these divisions. But equally an adult without language would not be able
to be a painter or gymnast, even if they could put paint on canvas or
spin on a beam, because 'painter' and 'gymnast' are positions in a
social reality which someone without language would be unable to adopt.
still dancing
Martin
On Jul 27, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
Martin,
We've been round this mulberry bush before, so I suspect David might
agree with you, but I differ.
As I recall, LSV claims that word-meaning is the unit of analaysis for
intelligent speech and therefore the "microcosm" of consciousness.
So LSV agreed with Marx, as do I, that practice, or artefact mediated
action is the unit of analysis of consciousness.
all linguists of course disagree. But I wonder if a painter would
agree, or a gymnast?
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
David, ...
meaningful-sound is a concrete phenomenon, located in place and time.
And he promises that we will thereby find the unity of thinking and
speech, of generalization and social interaction, of thinking and
communication, of intellect and affect. In short, of consciousness.
No? Yes?
Martin
On Jul 25, 2009, at 3:25 PM, David Kellogg wrote:
Martin:
Yes, definitely! If you read pp. 49-50 in the Minick translation of
Thinking and Speech, we get Vygotsky's remarks on Saussure's
phonology in pure form. Of course, he rejects (again and again) the
Saussurean view of semantics; it's nothing but associationism. But
since he rejects associationism on the basis of its arbitrariness,
its lack of an intelligent link, and its lack of system, he has to
reject Saussurean phonemes too, no?
No! As you say, there are two points here for Vygotsky to
appropriate. The first is that the phoneme is part of a gestalt,
specifically, a contrast with some other word (e.g. "back" and
"bag"). But the second is that that gestalt is defined by MEANING
and not by sound.
Here is where Vygosky really parts company, not only with Saussure
and structuralism but also with Gestaltism. For Saussure, the
relationship between phoneme and meaning is entirely arbitrary; but
for Vygotsky it is fully determined by the social situation of
development.
For Gestaltism, the structural relationship is not unique to
language; it's shared with perception. But for Vygotsky the
consciousness that is created by thought is never reducible to the
consciousness that is created by perception.
The question I have is what Saussure would have made of all this.
Saussure was actually quite skeptical about his own system; he had
good reason to instruct his wife and students not to publish any of
his work. And as the article Mike sent around (on the Mandelshtam
poem) makes clear, he had big big problems with precisely the
concepts at issue: the arbitrariness and linearity of language.
Notice that Vygotsky doesn't really use the word "phonetic" very
much. The word which is usually translated as "phonetic" is actually
"phasal". But in the example Vygotsky gives about the psychological
vs. grammatical predicate/subject, where he talks about
psychological/grammatical gender, and number, and even tense, it is
very clear that for Vygotsky ALL the linear aspects of language, the
aspects which (unlike thought) include TIME in their
compositionality, are to be considered "phasal", not just phonetics.
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of Education
--- On Fri, 7/24/09, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Intensions in context and speech complexity ;
From 2-?
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 8:03 AM
On Jul 23, 2009, at 2:46 PM, David Kellogg wrote:
I think Vygotsky actually finds the single kernel of truth in
Saussure's course when he argues that a science of phonetics needs
to be founded on MEANING MAKING and not on the physical description
of noises people make with their mouths. However, his ability to
find this kernel in a mountain of structuralist chaff should not
deceive you; he is no uncritical consumer of Saussureanism.
David,
Coincidentally I was reading yesterday the section in Problems of
Child Psychology (vol 5 of the Collected Works) where Vygotsky again
makes this point. It is evidently Saussurian linguistics that V is
enthusiastic about: he refers to it as phonology and contrasts it
with an older phonetics which focused solely on articulatory
definitions. Phonology has the advantage of seeing the sounds of
language as a system, and so the child never learns a single sound
in isolation but always one sound against the background of the
others. V points out that this is a basic law of perception:
figure/ground, and also that the ground in the case of oral language
is provided by the speech of adults (so the 'ideal' endpoint of
development is present and available from the start, as emphasized
in the passage that Lois quoted a few days ago).
V is critical once again of analyses that divide a phenomenon into
elements and in doing so lose the properties of the whole.
Phonology, he says, has the advantage that in studying the sounds of
a language as a system it doesn't divide it into separate elements,
nor does it lose the central property of language, namely that it
has meaning. V adds that sounds always have meaning: "the phoneme,"
he writes "is not just a sound, it is a sound that has meaning, a
sound that has not lost meaning, a certain unit that has a primary
property to a minimal degree, which belongs to speech as a whole"
(271).
V's analysis makes a good deal of sense to me. But my own limited
knowledge of Saussure - guided in part by Roy Harris' writing - has
indeed included the dogma that the sound level of language carries
no meaning. You are saying, I think, that V has a reasonable reading
of Saussure, if not the canonical one. Can you say more about this
way of reading Saussure? V seems to be suggesting that the child
does not learn first sounds, then words, but always acquires the
sounds of language in the context of the use of words in
communicative settings, and this has the consequece that the sounds
would be aquired as aspects of a meaningful unit. Am I on the right
track here?
Martin_______________________________________________
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Martin Packer, Ph.D.
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Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA 15282
(412) 396-4852
www.mathcs.duq.edu/~packer/
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Andy Blunden (Erythrós Press and Media) http://www.erythrospress.com/
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_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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Martin Packer, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Psychology Department
Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA 15282
(412) 396-4852
www.mathcs.duq.edu/~packer/
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden (Erythrós Press and Media)
http://www.erythrospress.com/
Orders: http://www.erythrospress.com/store/main.html#books
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