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Re: Fwd: [xmca] Mandelshtam translation as intellectual tool
David, may be in the electronic version of Russian that you use? it is
corrected
In the paper Russian 1982 edition V.2 p.312 there is still
звуковая и слуховая сторона слова
but really all the context, especially the example itself and further
interpretation show that he speaks about semantics.
Bella Kotik-Friedgut
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:54 AM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:
> This is from Chapter Seven of Thinking and Speech (p. 299 in the Labirint
> edition).
>
> (1934) Мы хотели этим примером только проиллюстрировать то положение, что
> звуковая и слуховая сторона слова для ребенка представляет еще
> непосредственное единство, недифференцированное и неосознанное.
>
> "We only wanted by this example to illustrate the idea that the sonic and
> auditory side of a word present a direct unity, undifferentiated and
> unconscious for the child."
>
> Compare:
>
> (1982) Мы хотели этим примером только проиллюстрировать то положение, что
> звуковая и смысловая сторона слова для ребенка представляет еще
> непосредственное единство, недифференцированное и неосознанное.
>
> "We only wanted by this example to illustrate the idea that the sonic and
> semantic side of a word present a direct unity, undifferentiated and
> unconscious for the child."
>
> Now, Seve suggests that there was a word missing, and that the missing word
> is "semantic", which was replaced by the German translator, and eventually
> (in the 1982 edition) by the Russian editors.
>
> But I want to argue that in the light of Mandelstam's essay, there ISN'T a
> word missing. The Labirint edition is RIGHT, and the subsequent editions are
> wrong. It is the SONIC properties which present an unanalyzable unity to the
> child, not a fused mass of semantic and syntactic and sonic elements.
>
> Let’s remember that for Vygotsky the word begins as a VERBAL GESTURE, a way
> of pointing without your hands. To say that there is an ‘internal plane’ of
> meaning here is simply not true; it would be much truer to say that the
> sound and auditory aspects of the word are a single unity (and even the
> whole physical hexis of the child is part of that unity).
>
> In that sense, the "semantic side" which is the light emitted by the
> candle, is always outside. The sonic properties are indeed inside, and the
> other "phasal" properties (e.g. gender, number, and anything else that is
> syntagmatic and not paradigmatic) are outside.
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
> --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Subject: Fwd: [xmca] Mandelshtam translation as intellectual tool
> To: "Natalia Gajdamaschko" <natalia.gajdamaschko@gmail.com>, "Anton
> Yasnitsky" <anton.yasnitsky@gmail.com>, "Vladimir Zinchenko" <
> ZinchRAE@mtu-net.ru>
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 8:20 PM
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 8:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Mandelshtam translation as intellectual tool
> To: ablunden@mira.net
>
>
> I apologize Andy.. I am just finished with last year;s work and apparently
> failed to include the key passage. could you please forward as i intended?
> I
> am on family duty and away from email for next tHere's what I would really
> like to have the original Russian for. It's from the same essay that
> Mandelstam wrote about the broom that refuses to sweep and the pot that
> won't cook. This time, Mandelstam is talking about the relationship of
> SOUND
> to MEANING in the word.
> David asks for accurate translation of this"
>
> p. 77: “It is most convenient and in the scientific sense most accurate to
> regard the word as an image; that is, a verbal representation. In this way,
> the question of form and content is removed; assuming the phonetics are the
> form, everything else is the content. The problem of what is of primary
> significance, the word or its sonic properties, is also removed. Verbal
> representation is an intricate complex of phenomena, a connection, a
> “system”. The signifying aspect of the word can be regarded as a candle
> burning from inside a paper lantern; the sonic representation, the
> so-called
> phonemes, can be placed inside the signifying aspect, like the very same
> candle in the same lantern.”
>
> Mandelshtam, O.E. (1977) Austin: University of Texas Press. Selected
> Essays.
> (Translated by Sidney Monas.)
> wo weeks.
> mike
>
> here is what i could find
>
>
> am
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > there was no enclosure or attachment Mike
> >
> > Mike Cole wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Russian colleagues;
> >>
> >> Some time ago, David Kellog asked for help on the Russian of the
> original
> >> version of the following statement as translated in a book of his essays
> >> in
> >> Russian. The issues are of some importance for understanding Vygotsky,
> >> which, as you know, is a difficult undertaking, not matter what language
> >> you
> >> speak. Could someone find us the original Russian?? And offer your
> >> interpretation?
> >> amike
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden (Erythrós Press and Media) http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > Orders: http://www.erythrospress.com/store/main.html#books
> >
> >
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--
Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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