Re: [xmca] motive/project

Ineresting connection with Marx's conception of use-value,
Geoff, a concept which is ultra-objective in this context.
But ...

I should emphasise that I do not question at all that
motives arise out of activity, activity taken to be
something which is culturally and historically constructed.
And, that a psychology of activity requires a concept of
motive and need and its source. So, as a psychology ANL's
construction works OK.

But the issue raised in Anna and Peter's paper, and the
issue which is of concern to me is: what is a suitable unit
of analysis for this activity, a genuinely interdisciplinary
concept of activity? I don't believe that ANL provides that.
In my opinion, ANL just gives broad gestures to the social
and cultural origins of man's activity. We need a unit of
analysis that works in sociology as well as psychology.

Andy

Geoff wrote:
> Does the word "use" help resolve this problem? It evokes individual
> activity, tools, signs and meaning. It can also be used to define the
> boundaries of an activity system - those that use it and those that
> don't. (I'm thinking here of Bourdieu's Fields). It also helps to
> understand dysfunction by noting that schema that were once useful,
> perhaps as a child, are no longer useful as an adult. Referring again
> to Bourdieu, habitus can be thought of as an internalised collection
> of activities that predispose us to particular use/acts. In this
> model, agency is a means of extending habitus through use.
>
> Geoff
>
> 2008/12/18 Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>:
>> andy-- "need" is a term that I find no more or less elusive than "motive." I
>> feel this need for clarity but having had lunch I don't "want" more to eat,
>> but perhaps some sleep, perhaps to dream?
>>
>> We cannot, can we, define needs in purely biological terms for humans.
>> Perhaps someone has already clarified this issue in the discussion, but I
>> missed it. In which case, just point.
>>
>> No need to reply right away. :-))
>> mike
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The supposition that for ANL needs define activities is provisional. He
>>> hints at this sometimes. At other times, he says that he does not have a
>>> "unit of analysis" for activity. Either way, if we are to continue in the
>>> scientific tradition of Goethe, Hegel, Marx and Vygotsky, we need a "unit of
>>> analysis," i.e., a concept of, "activity."
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Gabosch wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, I don't think you have the idea quite right. The idea is not that
>>>> needs "define" activities. The idea is that unlike other animals, who are
>>>> biologically driven throughout their activities, when humans respond to
>>>> their needs, they engage in activities that transform nature, their social
>>>> relations, social structures, cultures, and themselves individually,
>>>> creating new needs in the process. Human biological needs become at once
>>>> transformed into social needs, meditated by culture, history, tools, signs,
>>>> ideology, language, architecture, public works systems. Leontiev took his
>>>> discoveries about the basic structure of activity in animals - the ways they
>>>> engage their bodies and psyches with nature to fulfill their needs - and
>>>> came up with his activity/motive, action/goal, condition/operation
>>>> framework. He then tried to find ways to use this activity concept to
>>>> elaborate on and extend the ideas of first generation CHAT, and that is kind
>>>> of where we are at today.
>>>>
>>>> This unit of analysis problem has been on my mind, too. There may be
>>>> methodological problems with the concept 'unit of analysis' in some of the
>>>> ways we have been conceptualizing it so far. Perhaps the 'molecule' and/or
>>>> 'cell' of social science does not look the molecule and cell of natural
>>>> science.
>>>>
>>>> - Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 16, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The only trouble I have with the claim that "human needs directly and
>>>>> indirectly drive human activity" is that it is a truism. My problem, as you
>>>>> mention, is what is the "unit of analysis" of activity, or what is *an*
>>>>> activity, as opposed to "activity." The idea that "an activity" is defined
>>>>> by "a need" (if this is indeed what is suggested) is that problems of
>>>>> sociology begin from an inventory of human needs: what is x for? x is for
>>>>> this. what is y for? y is for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Gabosch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy, I am been puzzled by your problem with the idea that human needs
>>>>>> directly, and indirectly, drive human activity.
>>>>>> You've been bringing up this issue in recent weeks and I thought that
>>>>>> maybe the problem was over an individual versus collective problem, or
>>>>>> perhaps over the problem of how to differentiate an activity from an
>>>>>> activity system, and then from a social system, or just how to separate "an"
>>>>>> activity out of many.
>>>>>> But your message here seems to say you have a problem with the idea of
>>>>>> **need**. You seem to be objecting to the idea that human activities are
>>>>>> essentially motivated by needs. Are you?
>>>>>> I would use the term "need" in statements like: the need for survival
>>>>>> drove pre-humans to develop social production, creating a new way to meet
>>>>>> human needs, which in turn laid the basis for creating many new kinds of
>>>>>> needs as society developed ... different social classes have different
>>>>>> needs, and that is the basis of social conflict, including wars ... human
>>>>>> need lies at the bottom of the human struggle for existence, control of
>>>>>> nature, and society itself ...
>>>>>> I know you know that statements like these are Marxist sociology 101, so
>>>>>> I don't mean to lecture on the obvious ... but if "need" is not at the
>>>>>> bottom of human motivation and activity, then what is? Is this a
>>>>>> terminological issue, or something more basic?
>>>>>> - Steve
>>>>>> On Dec 16, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for that collection of excerpts Haydi. As I read them, they
>>>>>>> confirm what I said, that for ANL, a "system of activity" is defined by
>>>>>>> directly or indirectly meeting a human need. ANL does say that production
>>>>>>> produces not only objects, but also produces new needs, but this does not
>>>>>>> resolve the matter in my view. Unless you accept that society is either
>>>>>>> planned and adaministered by the central committee to meet human needs, or
>>>>>>> naturally evolved to both meet and produce human needs then this cannot be
>>>>>>> believed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The latter interpretation sounds plausible enough, in fact it's a
>>>>>>> truism, but I don't see that it helps. For example, take war. If we set out
>>>>>>> from the idea that war is an activity meeting a human need, where does that
>>>>>>> leave us? how does it help us with psychology? Take anything - the Church,
>>>>>>> MacDonald's, News Limited, domestic violence, ... all we are going to end up
>>>>>>> with is a crass funcitonalism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't deny at all that a psychology can be built on this foundation,
>>>>>>> but it cannot, in my view, be taken seriously as a sociology.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Haydi Zulfei wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>> We are being asked "What is *an* activity/*a* motive?"
>>>>>>>> I thought some of us at least need more reading than interpretation .
>>>>>>>> I had to once more go from beginning to end of *A,C,P* and collect
>>>>>>>> whatever might more or less be related to these questions .
>>>>>>>> Half the job being done now .
>>>>>>>> Delete if you don't want to share . No way but to put it in an
>>>>>>>> attachment . Hope David kellog will have time to have a glance at it without
>>>>>>>> adding to my previously-loaded task.
>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>> Haydi
>>>>>>>> --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] motive/project
>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 10:25 PM
>>>>>>>> I think, Monica, you hit the nail on the head here, from the
>>>>>>>> psychological point
>>>>>>>> of view. On the sociological side, the problem, as I see it, with
>>>>>>>> Michael's
>>>>>>>> explanation is that not only does the pupil not know the motive of
>>>>>>>> schooling,
>>>>>>>> but nor does the teacher or the sociologist!
>>>>>>>> In a world where people know about agency and structure and such
>>>>>>>> terms, does it
>>>>>>>> make any sense to ascribe a 'motive' to an institution, outside of a
>>>>>>>> managed society like the USSR in which Leontyev lived?
>>>>>>>> But on the other side, Michael, I think you are right as against
>>>>>>>> David, because
>>>>>>>> "sleeping" is not Tätigkeit in the sense in which Leonytev means it.
>>>>>>>> He explicitly means "purpose actvity", or "doing" or
>>>>>>>> "practice," as I read it. Not just physiological movement. The
>>>>>>>> activity of an individual is *participation* is *a* (social) activity.
>>>>>>>> But what
>>>>>>>> is *an* activity, and how can it have a "motive," as Monica asks,
>>>>>>>> separately from the motives of individuals.
>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>> Monica Hansen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> Using the term 'motive' for the objective, goal, or aim of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> schooling as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cultural reproduction (or transmission) is misplaced here. Motivation
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> something to do with individual agency, doesn't it? It cannot be
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> forced from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the outside with 100% effectiveness. When trying to get an idea of
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> motivates the individual to engage in or become a participant in an
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> activity
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that will change the level of his or her conceptual thinking we have
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> understand the individual's motivation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mandating the goal of learning from the outside as in defining the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> objective
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of schooling and trying to force participation gives us mixed
>>>>>>>>> results,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it not? Can you really force conceptual development? Isn't that the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> problem?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We can only use external motivations so far in pushing intellectual
>>>>>>>>> development?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Monica
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>>>>>>>> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Wolff-Michael Roth
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>> Cc: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] motive/project
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HI David and others,
>>>>>>>>> I have repeatedly emphasized in my writings that the problem lies in
>>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in the English term 'activity', which collapses the German Tätigkeit
>>>>>>>> and Aktivität into one, unfortunately, because it also gives rise to
>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>> with motives. I think if you think about what children do as 'tasks'
>>>>>>>> and that these tasks are completed as part of the activity
>>>>>>>> 'schooling',
>>>>>>>> which has as motive the reproduction (transmission...) of collective
>>>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>> then you are getting closer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But children often don't even know the goals, in fact, because of the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'learning paradox', cannot know the goals of the task. This is no
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> clear than in the frequent student question, 'teacher, am I write so
>>>>>>>> far?' Students CANNOT intend the very thing that they are asked to,
>>>>>>>> namely
>>>>>>>> learn a concept. To be able to orient themselves intentionally to the
>>>>>>>> concept,
>>>>>>>> they need to know it, but if they already know it, they don't have to
>>>>>>>> orient toward learning it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Holzkamp has a lot to say about this, and he describes those things
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Lernen: Subkjektwissenschaftliche Grundlegung" (Frankfurt: Campus).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If anyone has implemented Leont'ev's program, it certainly is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Holzkamp.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By the way, further to motive, the German edition of Activity,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Consciousness, Personality has an additional chapter where Leont'ev
>>>>>>>> explicitly addresses questions of learning in schools, motives, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 15-Dec-08, at 7:32 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike, Steve:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Like you, I am thoroughly befuddled by the word "motive", and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've decided that applied to children in general and to child play in
>>>>>>>> particular it is anachronistic; children do not yet have "motives" in the
>>>>>>>> sense that Leontiev is talking about here. Last week we had thesis
>>>>>>>> defenses, and I took mild exception to a thesis which tried to
>>>>>>>> ascertain
>>>>>>>> changes in "motives" for learning English in children by the use of
>>>>>>>> Likert-style questionnaires. (My mild exception to these theses is
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> pro-forma, and a matter of tradition in our department; nobody ever
>>>>>>>> fails as a
>>>>>>>> result.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I notice that LSV (at the beginnning of Chapter Seven of Mind in
>>>>>>>>> Society,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> which I don't have with me just now) talks about the child's "needs"
>>>>>>>> and "desires". These he defines "broadly"
>>>>>>>> as "whatever induces the child to act". If he were going to proceed
>>>>>>>> to construct a Leontiev-like tristratal theory of activity, this
>>>>>>>> would lead to something circular: a motive is what drives the child to act,
>>>>>>>> and action is
>>>>>>>> defined by its motive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let me first take a look at Leontiev, A.N. (1979, 1981). The problem
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> activity in psychology. In Wertsch, J.V. (ed.) The concept of
>>>>>>>> activity in
>>>>>>>> Soviet psychology. Armonk, NY: M.E. Sharpe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On p. 48, ANL's got this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The basic characteristic of activity is its object orientation. The
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> expression 'nonobjective activity' is devoid of sense. Activity may
>>>>>>>> seem to be without object orientation, but scientific investigation of it
>>>>>>>> necessarily requires discovery of its object."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Already I'm in trouble. Scientific investigation is sometimes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> required to discover the object orientation of an activity (e.g.
>>>>>>>> sleep, whose
>>>>>>>> object orientation we still do not really understand but which will
>>>>>>>> presumably
>>>>>>>> be discovered some day).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But people who do not have the training or the time or the
>>>>>>>>> inclination
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> can and do conceptualize activities such as sleep or language play or
>>>>>>>> daydreaming. They conceptualize these activities as being without any
>>>>>>>> tangible
>>>>>>>> object. Why would an expression that refers to this everyday
>>>>>>>> non-scientific
>>>>>>>> conception be devoid of sense? Are non-scientific expressions devoid
>>>>>>>> of sense?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK, then ANL argues that the object of an activity emerges "in two
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ways: first and foremost in its dependent existence as subordinating
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> transforming the subject's activity, and secondly as the mental image
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> object, as the product of the subject's detecting its properties.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> detection can take place only through the subject's activity."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Presumably he's talking about the way in which scientific
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> investigation determines the object orientation of an activity, and
>>>>>>>> not the
>>>>>>>> everyday non-scientific detection of the object (which I think of as
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ethnomethodological motive, the one that participants are conscious
>>>>>>>> of). But
>>>>>>>> empirically both methods are the same: they take place through
>>>>>>>> examining the
>>>>>>>> activity of the subject with the detectionof an object in mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On p. 49 he's got this: "All activity has a looplike structure:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> afferentationàeffector processes, which make contact with the object
>>>>>>>> environmentàcorrection and enrichment, with the help of feedback to the
>>>>>>>> initial afferent image."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This suggests to me that PERCEPTION is in some sense the archetypical
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> activity. That would explain the OBJECT orientation! But it is going
>>>>>>>> to mean
>>>>>>>> big problems when Leontiev tries to explain play, because as LSV
>>>>>>>> remarks, play
>>>>>>>> is precisely the moment when children tear their meaningful
>>>>>>>> orientation away
>>>>>>>> from the perception of tangible objects. (Yes, Lewin and Lewin's
>>>>>>>> "field of action" is a big part of this, and with respect to the
>>>>>>>> child and the stone LSV is clearly closer to Lewin than to ANL!).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe there's a way out, though. ANL then argues that the crucial
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> problem here is not the loop itself but rather that mental images are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> produced directly but rather through practical activity in the world:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "This means that the 'afferent agent' that directs activity
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is primarily the object itself and only secondarily its image as a
>>>>>>>> subjective
>>>>>>>> product of activity that fixes, stabilizes and assimilates its object
>>>>>>>> content.
>>>>>>>> In other words, a twofold transition takes place: the transition from
>>>>>>>> object to
>>>>>>>> the process of activity and the transition from activity to
>>>>>>>> subjective product
>>>>>>>> of activity. But the transition of the process into a product takes
>>>>>>>> place not
>>>>>>>> just form the subject's point of view; it occurs more clearly from
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> point of view of the object that is transformed by human activity."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hmmm. When a child picks up a stick and decides to play horsie the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> transformation occurs more clearly from the point of view of the
>>>>>>>> stick (or from
>>>>>>>> the point of view of the horse-play) than from the point of view of
>>>>>>>> the child.
>>>>>>>> This does look a little sticky.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On p. 50, ANL explicitly goes against LSV's portrayal of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "needs" and "desires" as "anything that motivates the
>>>>>>>> child to act". He differentiates between desire as a precondition of
>>>>>>>> activity and "desire as a factor that guides and regulates the
>>>>>>>> agent's
>>>>>>>> concrete activity in the object environment". Only the latter is the
>>>>>>>> object of psychology.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK, now let me turn to the only text I can find where ANL really goes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> into play, which is a later chapter of his book "Problems of the
>>>>>>>> Development of Mind".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On p. 366 he begins with the rather startling statement that play has
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> object (and thus by his previous account does not constitute an
>>>>>>>> activity). He
>>>>>>>> says:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Satisfaction of its vital needs is actually still distinct from the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> results of its activity: a child's activity does not determine and
>>>>>>>> essentially cannot determine satisfaction of its need for food warmth etc.
>>>>>>>> Characteristic of it, therefore is a wide range of activity that
>>>>>>>> satisfies
>>>>>>>> needs which are unrelated to its objective result."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Curiously, he then uses "object" activity to differentiate human
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from animal play!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Where does the specific difference between animals' play activity
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and play, the rudimentary forms of which we first observe in
>>>>>>>> preschool
>>>>>>>> children, consist in? It lies in the fact that it is not instinctive
>>>>>>>> activity
>>>>>>>> but it is precisely human, object activity which by constituting the
>>>>>>>> basis of
>>>>>>>> the child's awareness of the world of human objects, determines the
>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>> of its play."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now this is starting to look suspiciously like the thesis I mildly
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> objected to last week, where the adult's attitudes are simply
>>>>>>>> projected
>>>>>>>> onto the child and then "detected" using Likert scales. On pp.
>>>>>>>> 367-368, ANL develops his thesis that play is a substitute for the
>>>>>>>> handling of
>>>>>>>> adult objects. So for example on p. 368 ANL speaks of "let me" and
>>>>>>>> "don't", the struggle between the adult who wants to protect the
>>>>>>>> child from himself and the child who wants to drive a car and row a
>>>>>>>> boat. This
>>>>>>>> leads, on p. 369, to the idea of a leading activity which is indeed
>>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>>> to a neoformation without the crisis. He then returns uncomfortably
>>>>>>>> to his
>>>>>>>> nagging suspicion that that play is an activity without an object,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> therefore not an activity at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On p. 370, he's got this: "As we have already said, play is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> characerized by its motive's lying in the process itself rather than
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> result of the action. For a child playing with wooden bricks, for
>>>>>>>> example, the
>>>>>>>> motive for the play does not lie in building a structure, but in the
>>>>>>>> doing,
>>>>>>>> i.e. in the content of the action. That is true not only of the
>>>>>>>> preschool
>>>>>>>> child's play but also of any real game in general. 'Not to win but to
>>>>>>>> play' is the general formula of the motivation of play. In adult's
>>>>>>>> games, therefore in which winning rather than playing becomes the
>>>>>>>> inner motive,
>>>>>>>> the game as such ceased to be play."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Contrast that with LSV's observation in Chapter Seven that children
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> do NOT like running around without any rules or goal, and in games
>>>>>>>> the meaning
>>>>>>>> of the game is entirely to win. Of course, we might be talking about
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> children: Leontiev might be talking about pre- schoolers, and LSV is
>>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>> talking about school-age kids. But the gap is remarkable; something
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> important is getting lept over.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK—so then ANL says that in play there is a mismatch between
>>>>>>>>> operation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and action, in that the operation is performed with the meaning of
>>>>>>>> the stick
>>>>>>>> and the action is performed with its sense. He says that this split
>>>>>>>> is not
>>>>>>>> given in advance but only arises in play action and that children do
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> imagine play without actually playing. If this were true, of course,
>>>>>>>> it would
>>>>>>>> be very hard to see how children are able to plan play, read about
>>>>>>>> it, or
>>>>>>>> reflect upon it, much less day-dream or indulge in language play.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, this isn't going to work. And it gets worse. Look at this, from
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> p. 381:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Games 'with rules' i.e. like hide and seek, table games,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> etc. differ sharply from such 'role' games as playing doctor, polar
>>>>>>>> explorer, etc. They do not seem to be related to one another by any
>>>>>>>> genetic succession and seem to constitute different lines in the devleopment
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> children's play, but in fact the one form develops from other (sic)
>>>>>>>> by virtue
>>>>>>>> of a need inherent in the child's play activity itself (?), whereby
>>>>>>>> games
>>>>>>>> 'with rules' arise at a later stage."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So ANL explicitly denies that whole discussion (in Vygotsky's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Leningrad lecture) about the intrinsic link between games with roles
>>>>>>>> and games
>>>>>>>> with rules. (There's a pretty good account of this lecture, which I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> always seen as the starting point for his elaboration of the zone of
>>>>>>>> proximal
>>>>>>>> development, in Chapter Seven, but it's well worth reading the
>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>> lecture, which is at
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1933/play.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ANL then has to explain why there appears to be a developmental
>>>>>>>>> sequence
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> linking role based play and rule-based games. For LSV this is no
>>>>>>>> problem: they
>>>>>>>> ARE genetically linked and in fact the child creates rule based games
>>>>>>>> iteratively, by varying the roles in systematic ways. But for ANL,
>>>>>>>> who denies
>>>>>>>> the genetic link, this is rather harder to explain:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Why do games with rules only arise at a certain stage of
>>>>>>>>> development,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and not simultaneously with the genesis of the first role games? It
>>>>>>>> depends on
>>>>>>>> the difference in their motivation. Initially the first play actions
>>>>>>>> arise on
>>>>>>>> the basis of the child's growing need to master the world of human
>>>>>>>> objects.
>>>>>>>> The motive contained in this action itself is fixed in a thing,
>>>>>>>> directly in its
>>>>>>>> object content. The action here is the path for the child that leads
>>>>>>>> it first
>>>>>>>> of all to the discovery of objective reality; the human still emerges
>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>> child in its objectified form. The role of the horseman, the play
>>>>>>>> action of
>>>>>>>> riding, is playing at horses, the action with a block of wood that
>>>>>>>> the child
>>>>>>>> 'drives' from one chair to another is playing cars.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And MORE:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "But during the development of these games the human relation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> included in their object content itself comes out ever more clearly
>>>>>>>> in them.
>>>>>>>> The tram driver not only 'acts with a tram' but is obliged at the
>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>> time to enter into certain relations with other people— with the
>>>>>>>> conductor,
>>>>>>>> the passengers, and so on. Therefore, at relatively early stages of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> development of play activity, a child finds not only man's relation
>>>>>>>> to it
>>>>>>>> in the object but also people's relations with one another. Group
>>>>>>>> games
>>>>>>>> become possible not only alongside one another but also together.
>>>>>>>> Social
>>>>>>>> relations already come out in these games in overt form, in the form
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> players' relations with one another. At the same time the play 'role'
>>>>>>>> is also altered. Its content now determines not only the child's
>>>>>>>> actions in regard to the object but also its actions in regard to the other
>>>>>>>> players in the
>>>>>>>> game. The latter also become content of the play activity, for which
>>>>>>>> its motive
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> fixed. Games are distinguished in which actions in regard to other
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> people become the main thing."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK--so the reason why there is no genetic link is that the child goes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from focussing on material objects in role play to focussing on human
>>>>>>>> relations
>>>>>>>> in rule play? No, that's not right either, because:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> p. 372: "We already know how play arises in the preschool child. It
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> arises from its need to act in relation not only to the object world
>>>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>>> accessible to itself but also to the wider world of adults."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike--it looks like we're not the only ones befuddled by
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Leontiev's "motive" applied to children; he appears to have
>>>>>>>> thoroughly befuddled himself. Leontiev's "motive" applied to
>>>>>>>> children is a little like the clocks that keep going off in
>>>>>>>> Shakespeare's
>>>>>>>> Julius Caesar, a thousand years before they were invented.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is yet another reason for prefering Andy's term
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "project" in describing play: unlike "activity" or
>>>>>>>> "motive", it's a real Gestalt, in that a "project" can
>>>>>>>> be, for the child, action/meaning, and for the adult, meaning/action,
>>>>>>>> whence
>>>>>>>> the possiblity of transforming, outside in, the one into the other!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>>>>> Seoul Natoinal University of Education
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>>>>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
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>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>>>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>>>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>>> Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
>>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>
>
>
>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ +61 3 9380 9435 
Skype andy.blunden
Hegel's Logic with a Foreword by Andy Blunden:
http://www.marxists.org/admin/books/index.htm
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