Re: [xmca] Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.

Eric,

I would be interested to hear more about what you consider to be
Vygotsky's misunderstandings of literacy and its effect on higher
mental functions.
As far as I am aware he didn't write much more than a few pages on
this. What he wrote was rather interesting.

What do you think is the problem?

Shirley

On 7 Jul 2008, at 14:47, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:

>
> Peter;
>
> I believe as a consumer of mental health services you fall under
> the axiom
> "highly qualified" to discuss the issue. I believe Vygotsky's
> error in his
> theories on defectology are similar to his misunderstanding of
> literacy and
> its effect on higher mental functions. My humble opinion places
> this error
> in Vygotsky's marriage to marxism and the march towards the 'better
> man',
> but that is certainly a subject for another time. Whether there be an
> error in theorizing or not Vygotsky's contribution to the study of
> special
> education is HUGE. If one thinks of the augmentation utilized
> these days
> by students who have disabilities it is specifically what Vygotsky
> viewed
> as a broadening of the social mileau and semiotic offerings. I
> have many
> more thoughts on the subject but time is short and usually people have
> other things, such as the new XMCA article, to discuss.
>
> eric
>
>
>
> "Peter
> Smagorinsky" To: "'eXtended
> Mind, Culture, Activity'" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <smago@uga.edu> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: RE: [xmca]
> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic
> xmca-bounces@web roots of mental
> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
> 07/06/2008 07:24
> AM
> Please respond
> to "eXtended
> Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have some very tentative thoughts on Vygotsky's approach to mental
> health, extrapolated from what I've read in the Cambridge Companion to
> Vygotsky, particularly the chapter by Kozulin and Gindis. I should
> qualify
> my comments by saying that I have no scholarly credentials for
> making this
> interpretation; mental health is not my field of study. At the same
> time,
> I've personally dealt with mental health issues; Asperger's, high
> anxiety,
> tourette's, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and other neuroatypical
> makeups
> have run in my family for at least 3 generations, including through
> me. So
> I do have a vested interest in this discussion, if little in the
> way of
> formal knowledge.
>
> The field of defectology had origins in a mechanistic mindset that
> viewed
> non-normative children as having flaws that could be repaired in
> the manner
> of a broken-down car engine. Rather than taking the mechanistic
> approach
> that children with special needs were defective and could be fixed,
> Vygotsky viewed the question of their condition “as a
> sociocultural rather
> than an organic or individual developmental phenomenon” (p. CCV,
> 334).
> Kozulin and Gindis find that
> "The essence of Vygotsky’s approach to remedial education is in
> addressing
> the secondary disability, that is, by countering the negative social
> consequences of the primary disability. Vygotsky believed that
> physical and
> mental impairment could be overcome by creating alternative but
> essentially
> equivalent roads for cultural development. By acquiring the
> psychological
> tools, disabled children transform their natural abilities into higher
> mental functions as do their nondisabled peers." (CCV, p. 345)
>
> To Vygotsky, rather than “fixing” the “defect” in the child,
> an educator
> should strive to minimize or eliminate any environmental factors
> that could
> amplify the effects of the original point of concern. I imagine
> that this
> effort might focus on diminishing whatever stigmas follow from being
> different; that is, it might attempt to educate people in the
> setting about
> how to view those with non-normative physical or mental makeups and
> treat
> them respectfully and in light of their potential. A second
> approach would
> be to broaden the sign-and-tool systems available for mediation.
> Again,
> this tack would require changes in the environment so that new
> tools become
> sanctioned, and new approaches to assessment become available to
> allow for
> alternative paths to performance.
>
> I would guess that he would regard "mental illness" the same way he
> would
> view other forms of "disability": not so much as defective parts
> that need
> repair, but as non-normative ways of being that call for new activity
> systems.
>
>
>
> (12) From Achilles
>
> Vygotskyan approach to mental health - socio-genetic roots of mental
> diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic mediation.
>
> “He (Vygotsky) did not believe in meaningless defect or
> retrogression:
> since the construction of the human mind follows a certain pattern,
> its
> destruction also cannot be arbitrary and therefore reveals specific
> rupture
> lines characteristic of the formation of the human psyche. That is why
> observations of the acquisition of language in the deaf-mute, concept
> formation in schizophrenics, and the rehabilitation of aphasics
> were for
> Vygotsky no less a part of developmental psychology than the
> sensory-motor
> behavior of the two-year old.” (Alex Kozuin, Vygotsky’s
> psychology – a
> biography of ideas, 1990 – p. 195)
>
>
> I want to study Vygotsky´s theoretical contributions to Mental
> Health: (1)
> mental diseases theoretical and methodological comprehension; and (2)
> therapeutics dialogical practices, in a cultural-historical
> approach. And I
> asked here on the existence of English translation from
> “Проблема развития
> и распада высших психических
> функций”, because I wish to translate it to
> Portuguese but not if it exists in English. Mike Cole suggests reading
> Luria, and Akhutina and Rodina. Very important suggestions, I will
> study
> Akhutina and Rodina, and search another references by Luria than
> the ones I
> have here (more in “classical science” style, than in the
> “romantic
> science” books, maybe the ones what I need, I don’t know). But,
> what more
> can you suggest to me about the “vygotskyan approach to mental
> health -
> socio-genetic roots of mental diseases and psychotherapeutic semiotic
> mediation”?
>
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Achilles,
> Umuarama, July 5, 2008.
>
>
> (11) From Mike
> Luria-- Also check out Akhutina and Rodina article at LCHC. And ask
> on XMCA
> to see what comes up/mike
> (10) From Achilles
> I remember that there was a vygotskyan metaphorthat 'a building
> does not
> tumbling down, by anotherlaws that ones it was constructed' (not
> exactly
> this words,I quote by core)- maybe quoted by Kozulin, I don’t
> exactlyremember high now. Seems to me a important methodological
> principle,
> but I haven't seen much empirical work raised in it, in mental health
> historical-cultural research, if you could help me with this to, I
> will be
> very greatfull too.Thank you again, very much.Achilles,Umuarama, 04
> July,
> 2008.
> (9) From Mike
> Yes, i firmly believe that.very important.mike
> (8) From Achilles
> Thanks...I had writed about my interest in othermail before read
> this.Do
> you think that 'raspada (desintegration) problem'can help us
> understand
> some questions to mentalhealth in historical-cultural
> approach?Achilles,Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>
> (7) From Bella
> Why italian? I sent you the Russian text- here it is once
> more.Mike, we
> just recently discussed problems of translation. If you want it tobe
> published in English, it would be reasonable to use the original
> Russiantext.Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> (6) From Mike
> Whoa!! here is the article for Poalo in Italian!! I have sent to
> Pentti
> fortranslation in JREEP/mikePS-- Thanks BorisЛегче найти
> на итальянском:Il
> problema dello sviluppo e della disintegrazione delle funzioni
> psichichesuperiori // La psicologia sovietica 1917-1936. Roma: Edit.
> Riuniti, 1976.P. 330-347.С уважением,
> (5) From Mike
> No need to apologize for your English at all, Achilles!You provide
> a great
> reference in Kozulin's book that should be accessible to readers of
> XMCA,
> and in the article from Vygotsky reader. Abrigado!:-)mike
>
> (4) From Achilles
> Joao, Eugene and Mike,
> The original text, in Russian we have in Russian Wikipedia, but the
> link
> seems to be broken. But I have downloded it before. (atached here)
>
> I wonder that the 'raspada' (disintegration/decay) problem is
> related not
> only to the defectology matters, but to the pathopsychology's too
> (like
> schizophrenia and Pick's disease
> - Kozulin presents this question in 'Vygotsky - a biography of
> ideas' (cap.
> 6 – Mind in Trouble - section Psychopathology and Regression); And
> there is
> a Vygotsky´s article in the Vygotsky Reader about 'Though in
> Schizophrenia'
> (I translate to Portuguese); the text about Pick's disease by
> Vygotsky,
> Samukhin and Bierenbaum 'K voprosu o dementsii pri bolezni Pika -
> klinitcheskoe i eksperimen- tal'no issledovanie' we find only in
> Russian
> too, Joao obtains it here in the list and pass to me), but I don’t
> know
> yet. I can try translate the Russian 'Problema razvitia i raspada
> vyschikh
> psikhitcheskikh funktsii', aided by dictionaries and another on-line
> translation tools, trying to learn Russian psychological
> vocabulary, but if
> Eugene did it, its better.
> Thanks. Excuse me about my wrong English writing, ok? But I think
> that I
> can understand you very well, even so.
> Achilles
> Umuarama, July 4, 2008
>
> (3) From Mike
> Hi Joao & Eugene--
> I do not know of this article in English, although probably we can
> get it
> translated if it is not. Meantime, I can recommend two sources that
> should
> help:
> Vygotsky, L. (1993). The collected works of L.S.Vygotsky. Vol.2: The
> fundamentals of defectology (abnormal psychology and learning
> disabilities)
> (R.W.Rieber & A.S. Carton, Eds.). NY: Plenum Press.
> and
> Katarina Rodina's article which can be found at lchc as follows:
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/VygotskyDisabilityEJSNE2007.pdf
> AR Luria's work should be relevant in several places.
> Perhaps our Russian bibliophiles can come up with an origanal for
> translation?
> mike
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 3:58 AM,
>
> (2) From Joao
> Dear friends... somebody has this text in english:
> 'Problema razvitia i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii'
> Thanks
> Joao Martins
>
> (1) Achilles para João
>
> Eu também teria outro favor para te pedir. É de perguntarna tua
> lista XMCA
> (é isso?), sobre haver ou não o seguinte textoem inglês. Em russo
> eu já
> tenho e quero traduzir (vai ser maisrápido que o do Pick), mas se já
> existir em outro lugar, nãohá necessidade. É o seguinte:'Problema
> razvitia
> i raspada vyschikh psikhitcheskikh funktsii''Problema do
> desenvolvimento e
> desintegração das funções psíquicassuperiores.'Será que já se
> encontra esse
> texto em inglês ou espanhol?
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Received on Tue Jul 8 02:19 PDT 2008