Re: [xmca] social memory

Andy

     Thanks for this. I have read Goethe, but
didn't realize that Vygotsky was taking this from
Goethe (who, I suspect, is quoting John :-)).
This adds an even nicer twist as, besides adding
a hermeneutic layer, there is a sense in which
Vygotsky is reading rather than quoting.

Ed

>I presume everyone talking about "Vygotsky's
>quote" knows that it all comes from Goethe?
>Apart form the Book of Gensis.
>
> 'Tis writ, "In the beginning was the Word!"
> I paused, perlex'd, Who now will help afford?
> I cannot the Word so highly prize;
> I must translate it otherwise,
> If by the spirit guided as I read.
>
> "In the beginning was the Sense"!" Take heed,
> The import of this primal sentence weigh,
> Lest thy too hasty pen be led astray!
> Is force creative then of Sense the dower?
> "In the beginning was the Power!"
>
> Thus should it stand: yet while the line I trace,
> A something warns me. once more to efface,
> The spirit aids! from anxious scruples freed,
> I write, "In the beginning was the Deed!"
>
>Translation from the Dover edition (Im Anfang
>war der Tat") Marx and Engels also take up the
>theme, Bruno Bauer I think?? and even Bukharin
>and Trotsky has their own twist on at more or
>less the same time as Vygotsky was writing.
>
>Andy
>At 01:01 AM 1/01/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>>Michael
>>
>> Thanks for this. Let me do some tasting. I
>>hope you don't mind if I use my brand of
>>ketchup :-) .
>>
>> Okay all of this seems to be in response to
>>a question I asked Paul (and, by the way, Paul
>>I am fine if you remember me as somehow looking
>>over your shoulder :-) ). So let me try to get
>>a very simplistic grip on the phenomena. Paul
>>and I were in conversation. Due to some words
>>he had written, I had responded in writing. Due
>>to the words in my response, you had responded
>>to my writing. And so forth. Given all this
>>Vygotsky is clearly wrong. Neither the word or
>>the deed is in the beginning. As James says it
>>is turtles all the way down.
>> Hmmm. Let me make a hermeneutic move.
>>Perhaps I have misinterpreted all this. You
>>quote Vygotsky as saying "In the beginning was
>>the deed." This may be a purposeful 'misquote'
>>of John's
>>
>>I. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
>>was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The
>>same was in the beginning with God. [3] All
>>thus were made through him. Without him was not
>>anything made that has been made.
>>
>>So perhaps a place to start is a taking
>>seriously of this 'misquoting' by better
>>understanding the original. Beginning in the
>>English, Word seems to designate a 'him' on
>>which, in a sense, the very existence of the
>>world rests and a 'him' that is different from
>>God, but so close to be God. In a sense,
>>thinking about some things David Kellog has
>>written (thanks David), perhaps the ultimate,
>>in a sense, interaction. How does this reading
>>stand up in the Greek (please note, for me, a
>>reading and a translation are, in a sense,
>>different). The first sentence is "En archê ên
>>ho logos, kai ho logos ên pros ton theon, kai
>>theos ên ho logos" which roughly reads 'From
>>the very first was the Wisdom-in-action of
>>GodŠ.'
>> So, perhaps, Vygotsky has nicely made the
>>point here-contrary to the usual
>>translation-that it is not that the
>>word-as-rules (I am using David's wording here)
>>is first. I would like to think that he might
>>say that it is also not action-as-rules that is
>>first, but the word-as-action (David's
>>interaction seems, in a sense, to work here.
>>Notice I have interchanged wisdom or word;
>>however, I mean wisdom). This seems to fit into
>>how I often read Vygotsky (and, for me, reading
>>and quoting are, in a sense, different).
>> This seems to begin to address the phenomena
>>a bit better. My words to Paul aren't (pause
>>here and take a breath) without my action with
>>the send key. Pressing the send key without any
>>words doesn't solve the problem. Somehow
>>word-as-action creates the interaction.
>>However, l disagree with both Vygotsky and
>>myself as I make yet another hermeneutic move.
>>I'll put it this way, 'In the beginning was.'
>>Being in the world, existing in the world -
>>wasing - is the beginning of development.
>>Action and words seem to be derivative. Seems
>>trivial doesn't it? Don't believe it. Of
>>course, I could be wrong (and that's another
>>hermeneutical move :-) ).
>> What would Vygotsky say to all this. I like
>>to think he would say, 'Interesting point. Have
>>you thought about ..?' However, such
>>speculations are, of course. not quoting. On
>>the other hand, I am rather sure he would say,
>>"Writing this stuff on New Year's Eve? Get a
>>life."
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>>Hi Ed,
>>>here is what Vygotsky (1986, p. 255) says:
>>>
>>>"In the beginning was the deed. The words was
>>>not the beginning-action was there first; it
>>>is the end of development, crowning the deed."
>>>
>>>Just some "food for thought."
>>>
>>>Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>On 30-Dec-07, at 12:52 PM, Ed Wall wrote:
>>>
>>>Michael
>>>
>>> Do you mean the correct order is: "Thank
>>>you in advance", why do people write? :-)
>>>
>>>Ed
>>>
>>>>On 30-Dec-07, at 12:21 PM, Ed Wall wrote:
>>>>
>>>>A general question for you: Why do people write "Thank you in advance."?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ed,
>>>>you are reversing the question of praxis and
>>>>theory, the former generally emerging prior
>>>>to the latter. We may do things to achieve
>>>>purposes, and then find reasons for doing
>>>>them. Or this is how Marx saw it.
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Michael
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>
> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel
>(H) +61 3 9380 9435, mobile 0409 358 651
>
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Received on Mon Dec 31 23:27 PST 2007